Gear Warning

"Mel Dawson" wrote in message
:

At 21:18 16 November 2005, Nigel Pocock wrote:
One problem with a recorded voice is that it sounds
like background radio chatter and your brain filters
it out (or at least mine does)
Our CFI discovered this the hard way in our brand new
DG1000. luckily landed on soft grass so no damage.

Incidentally the BGA in the UK does not reccomend an
undercarriage warning buzzer.

I know of two accidents causing injury, one serious,
caused by a malfunctioning u/c warning system..
I was taught to look at the u/c lever before going
for the airbrakes and after 3000 hours it hasn't failed.........
yet.





Don't worry, Mel. It will. You are waaaaay past due.



Larry "just get a friggin' gear warning system!!!" Goddard

"01" USA

I've got a buddy with a Sisu. His Radio antennae is on his gear door pointing down when the doors are closed, to the side when they are open. It works a little like a curb feeler. It's a last minute warning but it actually saved him once.
"01-- Zero One" wrote in message ...
"Mel Dawson" wrote in message :

At 21:18 16 November 2005, Nigel Pocock wrote:
One problem with a recorded voice is that it sounds
like background radio chatter and your brain filters
it out (or at least mine does)
Our CFI discovered this the hard way in our brand new
DG1000. luckily landed on soft grass so no damage.

Incidentally the BGA in the UK does not reccomend an
undercarriage warning buzzer.

I know of two accidents causing injury, one serious,
caused by a malfunctioning u/c warning system..
I was taught to look at the u/c lever before going
for the airbrakes and after 3000 hours it hasn't failed.........
yet.





Don't worry, Mel. It will. You are waaaaay past due.



Larry "just get a friggin' gear warning system!!!" Goddard

"01" USA

At 21:00 17 November 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:
W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). wrote:

I understand that frequently if someone lands wheel
up, when asked if they
did pre-landing checks they say 'oh, yes!'. The
point of course is that
those who are taught pre-landing checks are flying
training gliders with a
fixed wheel, and so they are used to saying the check
item but doing
nothing.

Perhaps, if they had a gear up warning system, it would
have alerted
them to the put the gear down, and avoided the gear
up landing. I find
having the buzzer screech at me is a good training
aid, and I redouble
my efforts to avoid it in the future.

The people I know that have landed gear up had 100's
(or more) of hours
in the glider they landed gear up, so it seems they
were used to 'doing
something'. The gear up landings I'm familiar with
almost always
involved some distraction so that the checks were not
done, or the pilot
grabbed the wrong handle, or the gear was down for
the whole flight and
raised for landing. Also, the pre-landing checks I
was taught did not
involve the gear, flaps, or ballast, as the ASK 13
had none of these,
and I suspect many (most?) US pilots were trained that
way. All this
leads me to believe the situation you suggest is a
rare one.

Personally, the 3 times my gear up warning saved me,
I had 200, 1000,
and 1500 hours in various retractable gear gliders.
All involved
distraction.

As Bill has correctly pointed out the BGA discourage
the use of undercarriage warnings on the grounds that
activation in the late stage of an approach could itself
cause problems. It is better to land wheels up than
loose control trying to put the wheel down close to
the ground. The cure is worse than the disease. It
can be particulary dangerous where the undercarriage
lever is on the right hand side of the cockpit.

The argument still rages over here between the 'configure
the glider for landing' as soon as that decision is
made. and the pre landing mnemonic. Again as Bill pointed
out challenge and response mnemonics tend to become
automatic both in challenge and response, especially
when learned in gliders which do not have water, flaps
or a retractable undercarriage.

During fixed-gear single-engine training decades ago, the plane was
equipped with a "gear" switch with red and green lights. My instructor
recognized the problem of transitioning from fixed to retractable gear
and taught gear operation from day one. Even flying a stinkpot Cessna
172 these days I find myself reaching for the gear switch!

Also, mnemonics are useful, but can also be problematic. For my glider
training I was taught "USTALL", which unfortunately doesn't prompt you
to drop water ballast. Guess who's landed full of water a few times!

My revised mnemonic is "BUSTALL", which is especially appropriate to
those who don't use it and land gear up!

Mike

At 03:42 18 November 2005, Wayne Paul wrote:



Or a Radio Shack piezo buzzer (smoke alarm.) In fact
it is so loud that I
mounted it in a sound attenuation box.

It is actuated when flap setting is greater then 40
degrees and gear is up.

and if that goes off at 50 feet on a marginal final
glide when you have kept the glider clean to get onto
the field?

It is just a question, not meant in any way as a critisism
and I use 'you' in the collective sense.


Wayne
HP-14 N990 '6F'
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/N990/N990.html

Don Johnstone wrote:
At 03:42 18 November 2005, Wayne Paul wrote:


Or a Radio Shack piezo buzzer (smoke alarm.) In fact
it is so loud that I
mounted it in a sound attenuation box.

It is actuated when flap setting is greater then 40
degrees and gear is up.


and if that goes off at 50 feet on a marginal final
glide when you have kept the glider clean to get onto
the field?

I'm sure Wayne will tell you why this isn't a problem. But, how can we
avoid the problem suggested by the question?

Malfunctioning warnings: one that goes off when it shouldn't shortly
before touch down seems so rare it's not worth worrying about. Gear
warnings save enough damage and blocked runways that I think they add
more safety than this situation subtracts.

Pilots that don't check their spoilers until close to the ground: this
seems like a training issue or self-discipline issue, either about
pre-landing checks, or very marginal returns to the airport.

Pilots who react poorly to a gear warning when low: perhaps this can be
handled as a training issue. I've seen several pilots extend their gear
safely at the last moment (less that 50' above the ground) and land
normally, and never seen an accident from doing that, so it's possible
to do, even with pilots not trained and ready for it. Perhaps pilots
with gear warnings should occasionally practice this at altitude,
opening the spoilers with the gear up, then lowering the gear. The best
procedure for dealing with the warning when close to the ground could be
selected (just put the gear down, or maybe close the spoilers first, or
even "ignore the damn thing and land on the belly").

Frankly, I think we should be a lot more concerned about the lack of a
"unlocked spoiler" alarm, or "canopy unlatched" alarm, than the
potential injuries caused by a gear up alarm. Unlocked spoilers and
unlatched canopies have caused far more accidents than gear warning
systems.

After learning how many pilots in our ASH 26 E owners newsgroup had
taken off with their spoilers unlocked, I added a "spoilers unlocked"
warning to my ASH 26 E. It was easy to do, because my Cambridge 302
vario has this feature built into it. It requires only the usual two
switches, one for the gear down and locked signal, and one for the
spoiler open signal. Of course, it also provides a "gear up" warning. A
nice feature is the gear up warning can be silenced temporarily with a
button press; for example, when I need to use the spoilers to remain
clear of cloud, or descend to fly with a glider lower than me.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Frankly, I think we should be a lot more concerned about the lack of a
"unlocked spoiler" alarm, or "canopy unlatched" alarm, than the
potential injuries caused by a gear up alarm. Unlocked spoilers and
unlatched canopies have caused far more accidents than gear warning
systems. "



This would be especially true if you look at the canopy design on the
new LS-11 that's mentioned just a few articles away on RAS. If that
sucker isn't locked it's gonna be GONE and if it hits the tail it's
going to make a mighty mess of things.

At 10:30 18 November 2005, Don Johnstone wrote:

A short story: When I was a lad I was interested in
all things flying and I was in a control tower at an
airfield in the UK. The circuit (pattern) was full
with about 8-10 aircraft performing 'circuits and bumps'
(It was in the days when the RAF were allowed to fly
their aeroplanes). An aircraft turned finals still
well out and a slightly excited voice said on the radio
[callsign] 'lower your undercarriage' The two aircraft
on very late finals promptly retracted their undercarriage
and landed wheels up, lots of sparks and minor panic
in the control tower.
I am sure the man on the radio meant well but the proper
procedure was to fire off a red very light forcing
a go round.
Just an illustration of how a well intentioned warning
can go wrong. I was 14 at the time, the response of
the fire teams was impressive. No pilot was injured
in the telling of this story.

Don Johnstone wrote:
..... No pilot was injured
in the telling of this story.

And this is, by far, the typical outcome of any gear up landing - power
or glider.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

In article , Don Johnstone REMOVE_TO_REP
writes
At 10:30 18 November 2005, Don Johnstone wrote:

A short story: When I was a lad I was interested in
all things flying and I was in a control tower at an
airfield in the UK. The circuit (pattern) was full
with about 8-10 aircraft performing 'circuits and bumps'
(It was in the days when the RAF were allowed to fly
their aeroplanes). An aircraft turned finals still
well out and a slightly excited voice said on the radio
[callsign] 'lower your undercarriage' The two aircraft
on very late finals promptly retracted their undercarriage
and landed wheels up, lots of sparks and minor panic
in the control tower.
I am sure the man on the radio meant well but the proper
procedure was to fire off a red very light forcing
a go round.
Just an illustration of how a well intentioned warning
can go wrong. I was 14 at the time, the response of
the fire teams was impressive. No pilot was injured
in the telling of this story.


When I was stationed visited the tower at RAF Tangmere in 1957, the
chaps used to make their finals call "Finals, three greens" There was
always a spare pilot in the tower to ensure the wheels really were down,
and they weren't just calling three greens out of habit.


--
Mike Lindsay