A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

US Competition Pilot Poll and Election



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old October 7th 16, 12:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom (TK)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 34
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

My sporting license comes with a copy of Air & Space magazine each month. Well worth the money!
  #12  
Old October 7th 16, 01:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,965
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

THATS why I keep getting Air and Space...
  #13  
Old October 7th 16, 02:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 174
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

Ron, in regards to the US returning FAI rules, I for one believe that the value of being part of the international FAI system (vs being separatist) is well worth any minor initial change/adoption challenges.

The FAI rules are not hard to learn (easy really), they are just quite different than US rules. This creates two very different styles of competition.. In many ways FAI rules are "contextually simpler" when compared to US rules (simple example, start and finish penalties and other scoring formulas).. Of course that is just my opinion. But I am fairly certain that I am not alone in that opinion. To me, the key motivator is always going to be "getting back on the same page as all of our peer countries" and not being the "odd ball nation."

Beyond that simple value is, of course, the removal of the US rules scoring software development burden (and ease of use issue). Guy has been a champion of volunteerism. An amazing, giving man. But eventually we need to stop burdening him with this endless project, especially if all that hard work is not providing any measurable return on his investment.

Again, the value of the US soaring community being "a real" part" of the international gliding community (rather than outsiders) is very significant. We will also find significant value in other areas such as pilot ranking "commonality", tasking commonality (being the same basic sport or something very different and almost experimental) and in general "rules stability." The US rules are constantly changing and because of the system constantly under intense pressure to change dramatically. See Flarm and what almost happened last winter. US rules are unstable. Under FAI there will be more stability.

I think there are many hard value benefits (scoring) and many, many soft benefits (community) that will pay off over time if we re-adopt FAI.

There is also the significant value of putting all the effort that goes into the US rules committee and repurposing those volunteers towards other key SSA priorities. Priorities such as youth pilot development, club growth, contest attendance, cross country transition, general SSA membership strategy, marketing and promotion, etc, etc. I'm sure this list is extensive.

Sure, there will be a short initial learning curve for us to change back to FAI but that is minuscule when compared to our current system of rules which are in a constant state of flux. Significant effort is required to maintain our software each season. It takes significant effort to do a season of US rules committee opinion poll, associated debate and then implement changes. That same effort would have us all well prepared for a new 2017 season of FAI rules in a single winter. A change to FAI would also end all future cycles of our annual US rule change process. This is sensible as maintaining our own seperate system of US rules provides us with NO MEASURABLE VALUE JUSTIFICATION for doing so.

I believe that many US pilots have a growing dissatisfaction with the low realized value of being on an entirely different rules system than all other soaring nations. If we can't show our pilots what we are gaining by supporting an entirely unique rule system, this dissatisfaction will continue to grow rapidly making it increasingly difficult to stay on the present course. That is not a good enviornment for growth, enjoyment, etc.

It's time. We need to let go of the US rules in favor of FAI and becoming part of the international soaring community again. No more being the odd ball.

Sean
  #14  
Old October 7th 16, 04:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 483
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

On Friday, 7 October 2016 07:59:01 UTC-6, Sean wrote:
Ron, in regards to the US returning FAI rules, I for one believe that the value of being part of the international FAI system (vs being separatist) is well worth any minor initial change/adoption challenges.

The FAI rules are not hard to learn (easy really), they are just quite different than US rules. This creates two very different styles of competition. In many ways FAI rules are "contextually simpler" when compared to US rules (simple example, start and finish penalties and other scoring formulas). Of course that is just my opinion. But I am fairly certain that I am not alone in that opinion. To me, the key motivator is always going to be "getting back on the same page as all of our peer countries" and not being the "odd ball nation."

Beyond that simple value is, of course, the removal of the US rules scoring software development burden (and ease of use issue). Guy has been a champion of volunteerism. An amazing, giving man. But eventually we need to stop burdening him with this endless project, especially if all that hard work is not providing any measurable return on his investment.

Again, the value of the US soaring community being "a real" part" of the international gliding community (rather than outsiders) is very significant.. We will also find significant value in other areas such as pilot ranking "commonality", tasking commonality (being the same basic sport or something very different and almost experimental) and in general "rules stability." The US rules are constantly changing and because of the system constantly under intense pressure to change dramatically. See Flarm and what almost happened last winter. US rules are unstable. Under FAI there will be more stability.

I think there are many hard value benefits (scoring) and many, many soft benefits (community) that will pay off over time if we re-adopt FAI.

There is also the significant value of putting all the effort that goes into the US rules committee and repurposing those volunteers towards other key SSA priorities. Priorities such as youth pilot development, club growth, contest attendance, cross country transition, general SSA membership strategy, marketing and promotion, etc, etc. I'm sure this list is extensive.

Sure, there will be a short initial learning curve for us to change back to FAI but that is minuscule when compared to our current system of rules which are in a constant state of flux. Significant effort is required to maintain our software each season. It takes significant effort to do a season of US rules committee opinion poll, associated debate and then implement changes. That same effort would have us all well prepared for a new 2017 season of FAI rules in a single winter. A change to FAI would also end all future cycles of our annual US rule change process. This is sensible as maintaining our own seperate system of US rules provides us with NO MEASURABLE VALUE JUSTIFICATION for doing so.

I believe that many US pilots have a growing dissatisfaction with the low realized value of being on an entirely different rules system than all other soaring nations. If we can't show our pilots what we are gaining by supporting an entirely unique rule system, this dissatisfaction will continue to grow rapidly making it increasingly difficult to stay on the present course. That is not a good enviornment for growth, enjoyment, etc.

It's time. We need to let go of the US rules in favor of FAI and becoming part of the international soaring community again. No more being the odd ball.

Sean


Sean, I will let you fight the movement issue as I do not have enough invested in competing at the US or world level. My investment has been and will probably continue to be assisting with coordinating and running events.

The number of venues able or willing to hold events has shrunk and is limited to just a handful. Along with this the number of people willing to run events has shrunk as has the pool of tow pilots.

Bit of a chicken and egg situation; rules used are moot if there are no venues or competition sites available.
  #15  
Old October 7th 16, 05:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 962
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

Sean:

Adopting FAI rules might be the final nail for the sport in the US. Club doesn't replace Sports, so you lose participation there. There's no way to combine standards with 15m under FAI rules, so now the standard class is completely dead and gone for good. Guys with old ships racing in the handicapped "combined FAI class" (can't we just call it 15m, pretty please?) will be less inclined to race with 27s and V2s and come to think of it, ASW-20Bs and Cs, Ventus As and Bs and LS-6s don't fit *anywhere* in the FAI rules scheme of things, so those guys are either racing at parity with 27s (aggravating!) or just SOL.

What this means is that your average regional race will now consist of 18m, a much smaller 15m class and a Club Class that might be 2/3 the size of the Sports class is replaces.

You need to get your head out of your 18m cockpit and think about the less well heeled trying to participate in the other classes. You need us. Without us, your races either get a lot more expensive and a lot less interesting socially or people just give up altogether.

It's pretty distressing seeing only 20 guys at a race that used to regularly host twice that number (New Castle). Incidentally, 8 of the 13 gliders racing in 15m were either standards or old 15m ships. I'm really pleased that BRSS was willing to work their tails off to host only 20 of us. Is it reasonable to expect that they'll do it for 12?

I'd like to take the opportunity here to thank the RC for creating the std + 15m combined class, because the racing in that class has been a great deal of fun.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
  #16  
Old October 7th 16, 05:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

I'm not a current participant, but I look forward to competing in the future. I find the discussion of native/international rules interesting.

As an analogy, alpine ski racing in the United States separately maintains its own set of equipment rules. This is costly, confusing, and leads to various growing pains when young athletes move to international competition. Much of the membership would prefer the simpler, unified international ruleset, but a small mafia with the free time to join committees in the US continues to reinvent the wheel for their own purposes. It appears common sense is prevailing and the trend over the last few years has been towards normalization.

Some here have discussed the issue of licensing fees. Surely one does not need to pay the international license fee for every competitor in order to photocopy the rulebook. I have participated in several sports where rules and methods are copied by one organization without fees paid to belong and be ranked in the original organization. Running a local ranking system is much simpler than running an entirely separate set of rules.

I don't personally know Sean or Tom Kelley but when Tom replied with a variety of petty personal attacks I was not impressed.

I believe the biggest problem with a separate set of rules is the negative impact on performance at events that matter by the few who excel to that level. The results (or lack thereof) speak for themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_..._Championships

Hopefully I'll compete with some of you in the future,
Garrett McEwen

PS: Tom, how many youtube followers do you have? I just checked and the SSA official youtube account has 362 followers. That's approximately half what an average teenage girl has. Maybe lets not harass a guy that actually tries to share Soaring with a broader audience in the US.
  #17  
Old October 7th 16, 06:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 961
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

On Saturday, October 8, 2016 at 5:30:10 AM UTC+13, Tango Eight wrote:
Sean:

Adopting FAI rules might be the final nail for the sport in the US. Club doesn't replace Sports, so you lose participation there. There's no way to combine standards with 15m under FAI rules, so now the standard class is completely dead and gone for good. Guys with old ships racing in the handicapped "combined FAI class" (can't we just call it 15m, pretty please?) will be less inclined to race with 27s and V2s and come to think of it, ASW-20Bs and Cs, Ventus As and Bs and LS-6s don't fit *anywhere* in the FAI rules scheme of things, so those guys are either racing at parity with 27s (aggravating!) or just SOL.

What this means is that your average regional race will now consist of 18m, a much smaller 15m class and a Club Class that might be 2/3 the size of the Sports class is replaces.

You need to get your head out of your 18m cockpit and think about the less well heeled trying to participate in the other classes. You need us. Without us, your races either get a lot more expensive and a lot less interesting socially or people just give up altogether.

It's pretty distressing seeing only 20 guys at a race that used to regularly host twice that number (New Castle). Incidentally, 8 of the 13 gliders racing in 15m were either standards or old 15m ships. I'm really pleased that BRSS was willing to work their tails off to host only 20 of us. Is it reasonable to expect that they'll do it for 12?

I'd like to take the opportunity here to thank the RC for creating the std + 15m combined class, because the racing in that class has been a great deal of fun.


I may be mistaken here, but I feel as if you're talking about what classes events are held for, while Sean is talking about questions such as task types and scoring formulas. And they are totally independent things!

Sure, if you want to enter the Worlds then you'll have to choose some current FAI class to enter in.

And learn the FAI contest rules instead of the US contest rules, and how to best makes use of them to your advantage.

One is about what piece of plastic you sit in. The other is about what is inside your head.

Even if you adopt FAI tasking and scoring, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to prevent you from running a contest with whatever class entry rules you want to. Have a 1-26 class if there are a lot of them near you. Have a PW5+AC4+Ka6 class if that's what people have. Or make an event for gliders with a BGA handicap (sorry -- is there a US equivalent?) between 88 (LS1, DG100) and 96 (Cirrus 18.8, Janus A/B, DG300, Speed Astir, DG1000 18, PIK 20, LS4) if you've got a lot of people with gliders like that. Or whatever.

Who stops you? No one.

Running an event with some wacky special class or classes that fits your available entrants is pretty much a zero marginal cost thing to do.

And you can use FAI tasking and scoring for it. Which puts a lower cognitive load on pilots, who only have to learn one set of rules, and removes the need to maintain and debate local tasking and scoring rules.

(and of course IGC handicaps instead of BGA ones if you want .. I just wanted to emphasise that you don't have to go IGC for everything)

Or have I misrepresented Sean?
  #18  
Old October 7th 16, 07:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 190
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 12:30:10 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:

You need to get your head out of your 18m cockpit and think about the less well heeled trying to participate in the other classes. You need us. Without us, your races either get a lot more expensive and a lot less interesting socially or people just give up altogether.


Applauding...thank you Evan...well said!

  #19  
Old October 7th 16, 07:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom Kelley #711
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 306
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 10:35:25 AM UTC-6, wrote:
I'm not a current participant, but I look forward to competing in the future. I find the discussion of native/international rules interesting.

As an analogy, alpine ski racing in the United States separately maintains its own set of equipment rules. This is costly, confusing, and leads to various growing pains when young athletes move to international competition.. Much of the membership would prefer the simpler, unified international ruleset, but a small mafia with the free time to join committees in the US continues to reinvent the wheel for their own purposes. It appears common sense is prevailing and the trend over the last few years has been towards normalization.

Some here have discussed the issue of licensing fees. Surely one does not need to pay the international license fee for every competitor in order to photocopy the rulebook. I have participated in several sports where rules and methods are copied by one organization without fees paid to belong and be ranked in the original organization. Running a local ranking system is much simpler than running an entirely separate set of rules.

I don't personally know Sean or Tom Kelley but when Tom replied with a variety of petty personal attacks I was not impressed.

I believe the biggest problem with a separate set of rules is the negative impact on performance at events that matter by the few who excel to that level. The results (or lack thereof) speak for themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_..._Championships

Hopefully I'll compete with some of you in the future,
Garrett McEwen

PS: Tom, how many youtube followers do you have? I just checked and the SSA official youtube account has 362 followers. That's approximately half what an average teenage girl has. Maybe lets not harass a guy that actually tries to share Soaring with a broader audience in the US.


Trust me, my posts weren't made with any thought of you in mind. But I don't do "You Tube videos", don't belong to any "Cults" or "Coop" attempts. The only "expert" certificate I have deals with qualifying with a handgun during the 6 years I spent in the Vietnam war.
But I do have over 50 years in this sport so I can understand your post as you state as it comes from someone "extremely naive". During this 50+ year time frame our sport has grown to where it is now. I encourage you to briefly look at its past.

Recently, this last summer, we had several World Class pilot's show up in Nephi( where we held 3 Nationals combined) to try to make the event financially successful for the contest organizers. In years pass each National would fill to 65, not anymore. We had 62 total. The World Class pilot's who came had no problems adapting to our rules and one ended up at the top of the score sheet in "Open Class". Others have done the same. We hear no complaints.

The past members of our rules committee, including the SSA BOD, and so many others, not only have freely given their time but are all highly educated, successful professionals in their selected fields. Very capable to lead our sport IMHO.

Maybe a reread of Seans first post might be in order. But my first post tried to give insight to Sean in response to his "feelings". I did do a little "jab" at the end, but he is a champion sailboat racer. All meant in fun. Some may have read it differently. I meant it as no harm, no foul. I apologize if taken differently. Some readers don't hear the "voice" behind the words and apply their own.

But I will stand by my second post as it was made with "sarcastic humor" in mind. Also I won't hide from my posts by changing my SSA address or email address as other's have done.

Evan, T8, makes a valid statement. I thank him for that. That with the past and present SSA BOD along with the present and past members of the rules committee I will always support and give "Thanks" to. They also are NOT members of a "Cult", but "Open" minded individuals who have volunteered their time in many areas of our sport. Myself, along with well over 25 filled logbooks, hundreds of students trained, etc., doesn't even come close to the time they have given to keep our sport alive and trying to grow. They will welcome you at whatever event you choose, as I.

I encourage you to "learn" more, gain knowledge and become educated, also review the many topics freely discussed on RAS. In the end, the wheel will still go around, around and around ending up at the same place it started. That's why I brought up the You Tube "views", as a friendly reminder to Sean, as you have shown, as so little interest is seen. His time might be better spent raising funds/studying, etc. for his chosen endeavors. But it is his choice and my mistake in trying to help.

Best. Tom #711.




  #20  
Old October 7th 16, 07:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 105
Default US Competition Pilot Poll and Election

On Tuesday, October 4, 2016 at 2:18:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hello US contest pilots.
The annual competition rules poll and election of rules subcommittee members is now open at
http://www.adamsfive.com/a5soaring/survey/surveys.php
The poll and election is open to all pilots on the ranking list.
Please take the time to fill out the poll. provide comments and input and vote for
your next representative.
UH
SSA RC Chair


The problem I see is you could fly under FAI rules and the CD could still just call AAT, just like it is now.
So maybe talk with CD's and try to get more Racing Task, that would be half the battle.
Glennnnnnnnn
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
US Competition Rules Committee Election and Pilot Poll Started John Godfrey (QT)[_2_] Soaring 0 October 1st 13 01:36 PM
US Competition Pilot Poll and Rules Committee Election Now Open John Godfrey (QT)[_2_] Soaring 1 September 30th 11 02:59 PM
US Competition Rules Poll & Election [email protected] Soaring 0 October 15th 09 01:34 AM
US Competition Rules Poll and Committee Election [email protected] Soaring 6 October 13th 09 01:37 PM
SSA Competition Rules poll and Election [email protected] Soaring 5 September 30th 08 11:22 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.