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#31
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Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:11:22 AM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator. Airline pilot? Any winch launching experience at all to justify your position or are you just going by your "experience". Funny, I get he same response from otherwise rational pilots when I suggest that our club teach aerobatics in our K-21 or Blanik L-13AC (the one with the short wings, made for acro). "That's dangerous, people will crash, no one in their right minds want to do acro"... or the best: "I personally enjoy acro, but you can't trust all those other idiots - they'll go out and do something stupid." Kirk 66 (Tow pilot, ground launch endorsed, trained in acro and love it) |
#32
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Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?
"Fly without an engine?!?!?Â* I like to have an engine up front!" How
many times have I heard that? Some people don't like roller coasters, either.Â* They also miss out on a lot of fun. On 2/16/2018 9:46 AM, kirk.stant wrote: On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:11:22 AM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote: Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator. Airline pilot? Any winch launching experience at all to justify your position or are you just going by your "experience". Funny, I get he same response from otherwise rational pilots when I suggest that our club teach aerobatics in our K-21 or Blanik L-13AC (the one with the short wings, made for acro). "That's dangerous, people will crash, no one in their right minds want to do acro"... or the best: "I personally enjoy acro, but you can't trust all those other idiots - they'll go out and do something stupid." Kirk 66 (Tow pilot, ground launch endorsed, trained in acro and love it) -- Dan, 5J |
#33
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Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?
Correct airline pilot also A&P/ IA.
I don’t have an issue with winch tows persay other then the relatively low altitude they get you to. Wouldn’t really work where I am at. The issue I have is the typical lash up they have in the US and the qualification of the winch operator not to mention the maintenance of the winch. |
#34
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Quote:
All said and done, I aerotow more than I winch launch and will at times take neither and stay on the ground as the quality of the operator (winch driver/towpilot) doesn't inspire confidence. YMMV :-) Colin |
#35
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Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:33:47 AM UTC-5, Kiwi User wrote:
The rule of thumb we use for ab initio winch training is that the number of flights to solo is your age in years plus 30: I was in my early 50s at the time. Aerotow experience is a factor. My anecdotal data point. Age 62, 250 prior aerotows, I soloed on winch after 28 launches spread over six weeks. I'm not a 'natural pilot'. This was a very relaxed pace. I was in no hurry to solo, and there was excess CFI and glider capacity, and so it was an absolutely no pressure situation. WRT safety. Concerns about winch mechanical quality, instructor expertise, and winch driver expertise are legit and need to be carefully evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Same deal with the aerotow operations that we normalize. Winch launching has made me safer on aerotows and overall increased my life expectancy: 1)In case of an aerotow rope break, the trained reflex to push the nose down to recover airspeed before turning carries over from winch to aerotow. I think winch training makes me less likely to spin during the 360 turn off an aerotow rope break. Doing 5-10 'simulated rope breaks' on the winch over a few weeks trains that reflex much better than doing the one 'actual rope break' typical of aerotowing training. Karl S.'s 'zoomie' training exercise (see his description above) might be worthwhile for aerotow training. I'm much more confident about aerotow rope breaks after completing winch training. 2)Winch training is largely about landing from a variety of altitudes, positions and attitudes. It is a great cost effective opportunity to 'tune up' your landing (and outlandings if you winch train at Eagle Field). 3)Winching is FUN. It is part of my recurrent training plan even though I have to travel away from my home area to do it. |
#36
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Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 6:30:22 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
... training makes me less likely to spin during the 360 turn off an aerotow rope break. Why are you going to do a 360??? |
#37
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Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 9:07:39 PM UTC-5, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 6:30:22 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote: ... training makes me less likely to spin during the 360 turn off an aerotow rope break. Why are you going to do a 360??? Meant 180 |
#38
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Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?
While writing our training text for our winch endorsement program and looking ahead at new student training we began with many of the same ideas in mind regarding launch failures as stated here. In doing some research we discovered that most accidents originate from this launch failure training. Of course we can't stick our heads in the sand, but maybe there are better ways to train for these failures? Any one who's winched will agree that it's the sudden change in tasks that screws the accident pilot up. With out a well thought plan in mind it's easy to screw up at low altitude following a failure. The zero time student may be at an advantage here. They need dozens of launches to solo and will have more experience generally flying at these lower altitudes than their endorsement counterpart. This is because they will make use of their energy to complete a few turns and even grab a thermal once in a while as part of their training before entering the pattern instead of racing back for the next launch. Consider power pilot training, before flying traffic patterns we fly ground reference maneuvers before countless take offs and landings. But do we pull engines on multi engine students at 50 feet? Do we practice spin recovery at traffic pattern altitude? Winch training could be done with a similar philosophy. The push overs described by Karl are a great example of gaining one of the needed skill sets at a safe altitude. Additionally, an instructor may brief a maneuver to be flown from a prescribed height, say 200, or 400 agl to over fly the runway and fly an abbreviated pattern or land straight ahead. This gives the student the needed experience when the are mentaly ready to take in the information, rather than going "bang" you're at 200 agl! Real Simulated low level failures should still be taught but maybe doing six of them or more isnt needed if the student has other (better) experience at low altitudes and is an unnecessary risk. The BGA and DAeC spent a lot of time and effort looking into this, let's take their advice.
I agree with all of the launch numbers and advice mentioned above about site specific training, aircraft check out and changing weather. I even agree with the Troll above about maintaining the winch and having proper winch operator training and checkout procedures. On a side note it's a shame in the USA we need to scrape together this type of information. The BGA and DAeC have done an excellent job of caring for their constituents. Each year in the past 5 about 2 new winch operations have started up with more on the way. I strongly recommend modeling your entire winch program after one of these industry leaders rather than making it up based on bits and pieces gathered around to fit your preconceptions. That method has been done to death here in the States... -Doug |
#39
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Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?
On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 2:44:58 PM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
Correct airline pilot also A&P/ IA. I don’t have an issue with winch tows persay other then the relatively low altitude they get you to. Wouldn’t really work where I am at. The issue I have is the typical lash up they have in the US and the qualification of the winch operator not to mention the maintenance of the winch. Ok. Sorry I probably came off as a bit of a dick - not intended; but I do find that aviation background seems to have a lot to do with perceived risk/reward in soaring. I come from a military fighter background - having learned to fly in High School, so tend to see the risks in soaring from a very different perspective. Edge of the envelope is what it is all about, by it's very nature, and that is why it appeals to me; skill, currency, knowledge, training, all need to be up to the task. Just like most power pilots will say "why would anyone fly without an engine - that's nuts!", without any winch experience the natural response from someone trained in a highly structured, "middle of the envelope" flying environment" would be "that looks dangerous, what if the winch quits or fails in some way. But the non-intuitive answer is that during a winch launch, the pilot is totally in control of the safety of the launch at all times, and can always make a safe landing! Too slow - release and land straight ahead.. Too fast, dump the nose or release. Cable break, dump the nose and land. Erratic launch by a weak winch or new operator - release and land. OTOH - aero tows can develop into an unsafe situation without the glider pilot being able to do much about it: loss of power right after takeoff over unlandable terrain; tow pilot determined to take you downwind in a 2-33; slow tow when you are ballasted to the max, etc... Then there are the ways glider pilots try to kill tow pilots! Hard to hurt a winch launch operator unless you crash on the winch. Kirk 66 |
#40
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Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?
On 2/17/2018 9:35 AM, kirk.stant wrote: Just like most power pilots will say "why would anyone fly without an engine - that's nuts!" That was my exact response when offered a flight in a glider.Â* But I took the flight anyway.Â* And five more and soloed.Â* I haven't looked back since. -- Dan, 5J |
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