German-Wings Copilot "one of us"?

I've read only one news item on this tragedy and the worst I got from it
was the statement that breathing was heard on the CVR until impact. Not
being a physician, I'll defer judgment on the statement implying that
the breathing did not sound like a heart attack. I simply don't think
there's been enough information released at this time to make any valid
assumptions on what went wrong. My own experience has been that both
depressed persons and terrorists always make some sort of statement
about their acts.

BTW, flying gliders makes me a better pilot, not necessarily a better
person.

On 3/27/2015 9:05 AM, Paul T wrote:
At 14:09 27 March 2015, wrote:
On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 6:30:05 AM UTC-5, Paul T wrote:
At 16:09 26 March 2015, wrote:
I'm very much saddened to have just learned the Andreas
Lubitz,=20
the 28-
old=3D
who deliberately seems to have flown the A 320 into the=20
mountains started
=3D
flying in a Glider Club (Montabaur). He was still a member
and=20
renewed his
=3D
glider license in 2014 that he had since his teenage-years.
If=20
confirmed,
=3D
this mass murderer is a stain on what we all believe is a=20
brotherhood of
et=3D
hical and morals-driven individuals. Using Occam's Razor,
the=20
explanation
=3D
given by the French prosecutors this morning is highly likely.
I'm further troubled that this horrible act ended precisely on
what=20
the
Fre=3D
nch call "Le Parcours", a much beloved mountain range that
allows=20
fast and
=3D
long North-South glider flights along the French Alps. I had
a=20
wonderful
gl=3D
ider vacation in Barcelonnette, a couple of km from the crash
site. =20
This
i=3D
s all very sad. It must multiply the pain of the survivors of
those=20
on
boa=3D
rd.

Herb

=20
One of the most idiotic posts I have seen in a long time.
1) Not all the facts are out yet -your jumping the gun about
this=20
young man.
2) Just because your a glider pilot does not make you whiter
than=20
white or make you in any way any ethically or morally superior
to=20
any other human being on this planet- indeed many glider
pilots=20
have been complicit in the past either directly or indirectly with
the=20
deaths of many, many more people than this. Whether you
feel=20
these deaths were justifiable depends usually on your politics.
=20
Personally it saddens me that mankind has not yet reached
the=20
stage where it cannot find other resolutions than violence to
sort out=20
differences, and can take a thing such as beautiful as flight and
use=20
it has a method of death and destruction. One can only hope
the=20
human race will one day grow up, before it annihilates itself.
Paul, if holding yourself and the people you associate with to a
high
stand=
ard is idiotic then yes, I'm an idiot. Thanks for the name-calling
btw,
ve=
ry classy. Mankind has proven that it can "weaponize" nearly
every
seeming=
ly peaceful activity and flying gliders cannot be exempted. If
confirmed
fu=
rther by facts, the copilot's name will be added to the roster of
mass-murd=
erers and suicide bombers. The families of the victims, already
numb with
p=
ain, will be scarred for life by this crime.

Did not call you an idiot - I don't know you to make that judgement
- called your post idiotic.

I will reiterate. Just because your a glider pilot does not make you
in any way any ethically or morally superior to any other human
being on this planet, which appears to be you assumption.
Gliderpilot or not we are all fallible to the same weaknesses. I have
seen the full gamut of personality types in gliding that I have seen
in the wider world and if one thing that history has taught me is
that mankind is capable of the most incredibly heinous acts,
'gliderpilots' included.

I'm sorry but the ability to fly a motorless plane around the sky does
not grant you 'superpowers or a higher moral enlightenment', or
entrance into some' mythical brotherhood of superior beings' - as
you would seem to infer - that's just B/S.

Whilst this is an incredibly sad occurrence and one can feel for the
families affected, I will not condemn this young man, has you have
done - trail by media whilst common these days, is not my thing, I
would rather wait until all the facts are out - if indeed they ever will
be.. . and then try to understand not blame, banish, or condemn -
because ultimately that gets you no where.

































--
Dan Marotta

On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 11:15:06 AM UTC-4, Paul T wrote:
At 14:09 27 March 2015, wrote:
On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 6:30:05 AM UTC-5, Paul T wrote:
At 16:09 26 March 2015, wrote:
I'm very much saddened to have just learned the Andreas
Lubitz,=20
the 28-
old=3D
who deliberately seems to have flown the A 320 into the=20
mountains started
=3D
flying in a Glider Club (Montabaur). He was still a member
and=20
renewed his
=3D
glider license in 2014 that he had since his teenage-years.
If=20
confirmed,
=3D
this mass murderer is a stain on what we all believe is a=20
brotherhood of
et=3D
hical and morals-driven individuals. Using Occam's Razor,
the=20
explanation
=3D
given by the French prosecutors this morning is highly likely.
I'm further troubled that this horrible act ended precisely on
what=20
the
Fre=3D
nch call "Le Parcours", a much beloved mountain range that
allows=20
fast and
=3D
long North-South glider flights along the French Alps. I had
a=20
wonderful
gl=3D
ider vacation in Barcelonnette, a couple of km from the crash
site. =20
This
i=3D
s all very sad. It must multiply the pain of the survivors of
those=20
on
boa=3D
rd.

Herb

=20
One of the most idiotic posts I have seen in a long time.
1) Not all the facts are out yet -your jumping the gun about
this=20
young man.
2) Just because your a glider pilot does not make you whiter
than=20
white or make you in any way any ethically or morally superior
to=20
any other human being on this planet- indeed many glider
pilots=20
have been complicit in the past either directly or indirectly with
the=20
deaths of many, many more people than this. Whether you
feel=20
these deaths were justifiable depends usually on your politics.
=20
Personally it saddens me that mankind has not yet reached
the=20
stage where it cannot find other resolutions than violence to
sort out=20
differences, and can take a thing such as beautiful as flight and
use=20
it has a method of death and destruction. One can only hope
the=20
human race will one day grow up, before it annihilates itself.

Paul, if holding yourself and the people you associate with to a
high
stand=
ard is idiotic then yes, I'm an idiot. Thanks for the name-calling
btw,
ve=
ry classy. Mankind has proven that it can "weaponize" nearly
every
seeming=
ly peaceful activity and flying gliders cannot be exempted. If
confirmed
fu=
rther by facts, the copilot's name will be added to the roster of
mass-murd=
erers and suicide bombers. The families of the victims, already
numb with
p=
ain, will be scarred for life by this crime.


Did not call you an idiot - I don't know you to make that judgement
- called your post idiotic.

I will reiterate. Just because your a glider pilot does not make you
in any way any ethically or morally superior to any other human
being on this planet, which appears to be you assumption.
Gliderpilot or not we are all fallible to the same weaknesses. I have
seen the full gamut of personality types in gliding that I have seen
in the wider world and if one thing that history has taught me is
that mankind is capable of the most incredibly heinous acts,
'gliderpilots' included.

I'm sorry but the ability to fly a motorless plane around the sky does
not grant you 'superpowers or a higher moral enlightenment', or
entrance into some' mythical brotherhood of superior beings' - as
you would seem to infer - that's just B/S.

Whilst this is an incredibly sad occurrence and one can feel for the
families affected, I will not condemn this young man, has you have
done - trail by media whilst common these days, is not my thing, I
would rather wait until all the facts are out - if indeed they ever will
be.. . and then try to understand not blame, banish, or condemn -
because ultimately that gets you no where.

You're* you did it twice... just saying.

On Thursday, March 26, 2015 at 12:09:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I'm very much saddened to have just learned the Andreas Lubitz, the 28- old who deliberately seems to have flown the A 320 into the mountains started flying in a Glider Club (Montabaur). He was still a member and renewed his glider license in 2014 that he had since his teenage-years. If confirmed, this mass murderer is a stain on what we all believe is a brotherhood of ethical and morals-driven individuals. Using Occam's Razor, the explanation given by the French prosecutors this morning is highly likely.
I'm further troubled that this horrible act ended precisely on what the French call "Le Parcours", a much beloved mountain range that allows fast and long North-South glider flights along the French Alps. I had a wonderful glider vacation in Barcelonnette, a couple of km from the crash site. This is all very sad. It must multiply the pain of the survivors of those on board.

Herb

We may never know if this was a case of incapacitation, an intentional "mass murder" by this pilot, or a suicide by a very sick individual who never realized or cared about the carnage that he was creating. The key issue is that this scenario should not have been a surprise. There are ~150,000 commercial pilots in the world. In the US and Western Europe the average suicide rate is ~ 12 / 100,000 per year. It is inevitable that every year there are going to multiple cases of commercial pilots with suicidal tendencies that could result in this kind of incident. In the last 17 months we have witnessed three separate fatal aircraft crashes that apparently resulted from intentional acts by a crew member.

The problem is that the cockpit security precautions that were implemented as a result of the post 9/11 security hysteria have now created a new unanticipated vulnerability. In this new environment, where every hijack event is going to be vigorously fought by the crew and passengers, maybe armored cockpit doors are no longer a good idea.

On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 8:15:06 AM UTC-7, Paul T wrote:


I will reiterate. Just because your a glider pilot does not make you
in any way any ethically or morally superior to any other human
being on this planet, which appears to be you assumption.
Gliderpilot or not we are all fallible to the same weaknesses. I have
seen the full gamut of personality types in gliding that I have seen
in the wider world and if one thing that history has taught me is
that mankind is capable of the most incredibly heinous acts,
'gliderpilots' included.

I'm sorry but the ability to fly a motorless plane around the sky does
not grant you 'superpowers or a higher moral enlightenment', or
entrance into some' mythical brotherhood of superior beings' - as
you would seem to infer - that's just B/S.

Whilst this is an incredibly sad occurrence and one can feel for the
families affected, I will not condemn this young man, has you have
done - trail by media whilst common these days, is not my thing, I
would rather wait until all the facts are out - if indeed they ever will
be.. . and then try to understand not blame, banish, or condemn -
because ultimately that gets you no where.

Actually, I do think pilots, on average, are above average. And glider pilots in particular, if for no other reason than the motivation, drive, commitment, intelligence, independence and self reliance that flight and soaring entails.

There's evidence we've been killing each other for thousands of years, and more probably since before our ancestors ventured out of the trees. During the last century we've simply found more efficient ways to do that. And your disappointed we have not come to the point of putting all that behind us? Really? Reality check, there's evil out there. And will be as long as there's greedy, power hungry people. To think violence will somehow end is pollyannaish to the extreme. The best we can hope for is to try to eliminate evil where we can, and endeavor to do right and good by others. And carry a gun.

I've been a cop in Oakland, CA, and had the opportunity to deal with a significant number of seriously bad people. Now I'm fortunate to know a lot of pilots. If you think these groups share anything near the same level of ethics, morals and just plain good human qualities, I was going to suggest you try to get out more. Upon reflection, belay that, be happy, find a campfire and join in the Kumbaya.

bumper

I think Paul's comments are missing the point of Herb's post. They are also mean spirited and remind me of trolling on youtube rather contributing to an active conversation this board is designed for.

Herb was just talking solidarity man, that's all. We as a community want to believe that those among us are good people; that other glider pilots share our value systems. Of course not all do, but speaking in generalizations, if I'm in a dark alley with a guy walking towards me, it would immediately put me at ease to know he was a glider pilot...

On 3/27/2015 6:33 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
snip

The problem is that the cockpit security precautions that were
implemented as a result of the post 9/11 security hysteria have now
created a new unanticipated vulnerability. In this new environment,
where every hijack event is going to be vigorously fought by the crew
and passengers, maybe armored cockpit doors are no longer a good idea.

I thought I read that the aircraft has a keypad outside the cockpit door
and, upon entry of the emergency override code, which the captain should
have known, the door would unlock for a short time after a specific delay.

--
Dan Marotta

On Saturday, March 28, 2015 at 11:20:25 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 3/27/2015 6:33 PM, Mike Schumann
wrote:


snip


The problem is that the cockpit security precautions
that were implemented as a result of the post 9/11 security
hysteria have now created a new unanticipated vulnerability. In
this new environment, where every hijack event is going to be
vigorously fought by the crew and passengers, maybe armored
cockpit doors are no longer a good idea.



I thought I read that the aircraft has a keypad outside the cockpit
door and, upon entry of the emergency override code, which the
captain should have known, the door would unlock for a short time
after a specific delay.




--

Dan Marotta

I believe, "yes & no". The person in the cockpit can do a "full lock-out" which appears to be the case this time.

On Saturday, March 28, 2015 at 4:41:36 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Saturday, March 28, 2015 at 11:20:25 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 3/27/2015 6:33 PM, Mike Schumann
wrote:


snip


The problem is that the cockpit security precautions
that were implemented as a result of the post 9/11 security
hysteria have now created a new unanticipated vulnerability. In
this new environment, where every hijack event is going to be
vigorously fought by the crew and passengers, maybe armored
cockpit doors are no longer a good idea.



I thought I read that the aircraft has a keypad outside the cockpit
door and, upon entry of the emergency override code, which the
captain should have known, the door would unlock for a short time
after a specific delay.




--

Dan Marotta

I believe, "yes & no". The person in the cockpit can do a "full lock-out" which appears to be the case this time.

I don't fly a 'bus, but I understand the cockpit door switch is three position- Open, Auto (outside keypad works), and locked (meaning no one gets in unless let in).

Here in the U.S. post 9/11, when one of us steps out of the cockpit, a FA or jump seater must stay in the cockpit with the pilot remaining. In case of an inflight emergency the pilot flying can handle it and the other member of crew can either assist or let the other pilot back in. In the hindsight of this case that seems like a good policy.

On Saturday, March 28, 2015 at 3:22:45 PM UTC-7, richard wilkening wrote:
Here in the U.S. post 9/11, when one of us steps out of the cockpit, a FA or jump seater must stay in the cockpit with the pilot remaining. In case of an inflight emergency the pilot flying can handle it and the other member of crew can either assist or let the other pilot back in. In the hindsight of this case that seems like a good policy.

Of course, in the US, there is also a policy in place that allows pilots to bring firearms into the cockpit, so the presence of a second person may not make a whole lot of difference in this sort of case...

....Unless the armed pilot is NOT the one trying to crash the plane.

On 3/28/2015 4:45 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, March 28, 2015 at 3:22:45 PM UTC-7, richard wilkening wrote:
Here in the U.S. post 9/11, when one of us steps out of the cockpit, a FA or jump seater must stay in the cockpit with the pilot remaining. In case of an inflight emergency the pilot flying can handle it and the other member of crew can either assist or let the other pilot back in. In the hindsight of this case that seems like a good policy.
Of course, in the US, there is also a policy in place that allows pilots to bring firearms into the cockpit, so the presence of a second person may not make a whole lot of difference in this sort of case...

--
Dan Marotta