Leading Turns With Rudder

Tony Verhulst wrote:
Chris Reed wrote:
I'd say this post provides an excellent summary.

There are gliders where, to obtain improved performance, it is
sometimes helpful to fly uncoordinated. For example, to persuade my
Open Cirrus (1967 design, 17.7m span) to turn into a strong thermal,
it's sometimes most effective to yaw it towards the thermal enough to
induce the beginning of a wing drop - then catch it and continue into
the turn.

In the (most excellent) video "A Fine Week of Soaring", George Moffat
says that the handling of some first generation glass ships was so poor
that you could initiate a turn substantially faster by first moving the
stick in the opposite direction. Once the adverse yaw (in the desired
direction)had kicked in, THEN you'd move the ailerons into the turn.

Tony V
Sounds like a Nimbus 2 specific quote....

I suspect it's a Nimbus 1 specific quote (Open Cirrus fuselage with huge
wings) - see Moffat's Winning on the Wind 1st ed for a description of
the fun he had flying this beast.

I'm told the Nimbus 2 is *way* better handling (even though almost all
opinions I've heard on the 2 - as opposed to the 2c - are not
complimentary).

phil collin wrote:
Tony Verhulst wrote:
Chris Reed wrote:
I'd say this post provides an excellent summary.

There are gliders where, to obtain improved performance, it is
sometimes helpful to fly uncoordinated. For example, to persuade my
Open Cirrus (1967 design, 17.7m span) to turn into a strong thermal,
it's sometimes most effective to yaw it towards the thermal enough to
induce the beginning of a wing drop - then catch it and continue into
the turn.

In the (most excellent) video "A Fine Week of Soaring", George Moffat
says that the handling of some first generation glass ships was so
poor that you could initiate a turn substantially faster by first
moving the stick in the opposite direction. Once the adverse yaw (in
the desired direction)had kicked in, THEN you'd move the ailerons into
the turn.

Tony V
Sounds like a Nimbus 2 specific quote....

On Jul 31, 12:38 pm, Chris Reed wrote:
I suspect it's a Nimbus 1 specific quote (Open Cirrus fuselage with huge
wings) - see Moffat's Winning on the Wind 1st ed for a description of
the fun he had flying this beast.

I'm told the Nimbus 2 is *way* better handling (even though almost all
opinions I've heard on the 2 - as opposed to the 2c - are not
complimentary).

phil collin wrote:
Tony Verhulst wrote:
Chris Reed wrote:
I'd say this post provides an excellent summary.

There are gliders where, to obtain improved performance, it is
sometimes helpful to fly uncoordinated. For example, to persuade my
Open Cirrus (1967 design, 17.7m span) to turn into a strong thermal,
it's sometimes most effective to yaw it towards the thermal enough to
induce the beginning of a wing drop - then catch it and continue into
the turn.

In the (most excellent) video "A Fine Week of Soaring", George Moffat
says that the handling of some first generation glass ships was so
poor that you could initiate a turn substantially faster by first
moving the stick in the opposite direction. Once the adverse yaw (in
the desired direction)had kicked in, THEN you'd move the ailerons into
the turn.

Tony V
Sounds like a Nimbus 2 specific quote....

Isn't that the plane that went into a spin during the world content
that he had great difficulty recovering?
Yikes!

I had a partner on an HP-11 that couldn't get enough rudder authority
to handle a
crosswind landing once (full elevator mixed out all the rudder input
for the V-tail). He swung
the ailerons into the wind to use the adverse yaw to kick the nose
around and line
up with the landing (he was a test pilot when he was younger). Not
something
I would have thought of at the time!

In any case the point of leading with the rudder is to get "better"
coordination, not to fly uncoordinated. I wouldn't consider bringing
it up
until the student was fairly advanced. Usually it would have come up
when
I transitioned people into our Grob 103 (after pilot license obtained).

I probably shouldn't leap back into this mess, but let me just point
out one more thing:

People tend to think about stick movements and pedal movements when
they talk about "coordinated" flying.

But the truth of the matter is that the airplane doesn't CARE what
goes on in the cockpit. It cares about how the air flows over the
craft and the control surfaces.

"Flying coordinated" means making WHATEVER control inputs are
required, in WHATEVER sequence necessary, to keep the airflow as
orderly and efficient as possible.

IMHO the best pilots are the ones who "detach" themselves and shift
their Point Of View to that of the aircraft itself. They aren't
thinking about the flight in terms of how they perceive it as an
occupant from their particular seating position or their control
stick. Thinking in terms of the aircraft and the air around it is
infinitely better than trying to act as a manipulator of levers and
pulleys inside a tube.

--Noel

Anyone that's flown a high performance hang glider, in this case a
Sensor 510, (I'm dating myself here) knows that somtimes we would get
a tip 'stuck" when trying to turn into a strong thermal. One of the
tricks was to "pop" the control bar the opposite way of the desired
turn, and "un-stick" the wing, this would usually result in getting
the wing to go where you wanted it to go.

The other day I was flying with a buddy and we were talking about the
thermals we encountered during that flight. I told him a couple of
times I would be climbing like crazy but not able to complete the
thermal turn, so I quickly pushed the stick the opposite way, un-stuck
the wing and then easily turned into the core. He looked at me kinda
funny and said he did the same thing that day.

We both have 3 or 4 hundred hours in hang gliders and made the switch
to 3-axis many years ago, and glad of it!

Brad


On Jul 31, 1:27*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
I probably shouldn't leap back into this mess, but let me just point
out one more thing:

People tend to think about stick movements and pedal movements when
they talk about "coordinated" flying.

But the truth of the matter is that the airplane doesn't CARE what
goes on in the cockpit. *It cares about how the air flows over the
craft and the control surfaces.

"Flying coordinated" means making WHATEVER control inputs are
required, in WHATEVER sequence necessary, to keep the airflow as
orderly and efficient as possible.

IMHO the best pilots are the ones who "detach" themselves and shift
their Point Of View to that of the aircraft itself. *They aren't
thinking about the flight in terms of how they perceive it as an
occupant from their particular seating position or their control
stick. *Thinking in terms of the aircraft and the air around it is
infinitely better than trying to act as a manipulator of levers and
pulleys inside a tube.

--Noel

He says... from the lotus position, index finger on thumb, palms turned
upward, and fingers spread. Be the glider. Hmmmmmmmmmm.... Hmmmmmmmmm....

Maybe someday I'll reach that plane (pun intended). In the meantime, the
best I can do is manipulate the controls to keep the string straight and the
speed within a knot or two of where I think it should be. Beep, beep,
beep... Hmmm... Now where did I leave my copy of The Zen of Gliding?

:-)


"noel.wade" wrote in message
...
I probably shouldn't leap back into this mess, but let me just point
out one more thing:

People tend to think about stick movements and pedal movements when
they talk about "coordinated" flying.

But the truth of the matter is that the airplane doesn't CARE what
goes on in the cockpit. It cares about how the air flows over the
craft and the control surfaces.

"Flying coordinated" means making WHATEVER control inputs are
required, in WHATEVER sequence necessary, to keep the airflow as
orderly and efficient as possible.

IMHO the best pilots are the ones who "detach" themselves and shift
their Point Of View to that of the aircraft itself. They aren't
thinking about the flight in terms of how they perceive it as an
occupant from their particular seating position or their control
stick. Thinking in terms of the aircraft and the air around it is
infinitely better than trying to act as a manipulator of levers and
pulleys inside a tube.

--Noel

user wrote:
Hmmm... Now where did I leave my copy of The Zen of Gliding?

I'm thinking of writing a glider book. I have two titles in mind -
either Guido's Glider Guider Guide or We Who Wear Funny Hats.

Tony :-)
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING/onO2_3.jpg

Let me suggest that what cuts across all types of glider, angles of
attack and back, phases of flight, is the goal of the maneuver. Both
the CFI-G referred to in the OP, Paul, and most others agree that they
wish to perform a coordinated turn entry (setting aside circumstances
where slipping is advisable or fruitful). So, in teaching, why not
stress monitoring methods first -- primarily visual (yaw string staring
in the face for just that purpose), and then also aural (screaming
vent), kinesthetic ("falling" to the inside is a classic sign of
slipping to avoid initial discomfort at leaning from the vertical,
"cracking the whip" a danger sign), control positions. So, "leading
with the rudder" could be appropriate IF IT WORKS, but how about making
it an incidental discovery, a consequence, as opposed to a primary cause
or goal. In introducing maneuvers, I favor discussion and demonstration
(student following through) of "it should look like this" before
admonitions of "move this to there to achieve that goal". Also, even
following RUAC, I favor avoiding "always" and "never".

--JHC

You may be on to somthing. Some pilots are referred to as naturals and
their skills are readily apparent.
A young friend of mine won a national hang gliding competition flying
bare bar, no instruments at all. The times I flew with him were
inspriring.................you see, I too was a member of those
ranks....heh..............the rest who have to study and make fun of
the Zen masters will always wonder how it's done, as they re-read
everything Reichmann wrote whilst grunting in the restroom.

Brad

On Jul 31, 7:00*pm, "user" wrote:
He says... from the lotus position, index finger on thumb, palms turned
upward, and fingers spread. Be the glider. Hmmmmmmmmmm.... Hmmmmmmmmm....

Maybe someday I'll reach that plane (pun intended). In the meantime, the
best I can do is manipulate the controls to keep the string straight and the
speed within a knot or two of where I think it should be. Beep, beep,
beep... Hmmm... Now where did I leave my copy of The Zen of Gliding?

:-)

"noel.wade" wrote in message

...



I probably shouldn't leap back into this mess, but let me just point
out one more thing:

People tend to think about stick movements and pedal movements when
they talk about "coordinated" flying.

But the truth of the matter is that the airplane doesn't CARE what
goes on in the cockpit. *It cares about how the air flows over the
craft and the control surfaces.

"Flying coordinated" means making WHATEVER control inputs are
required, in WHATEVER sequence necessary, to keep the airflow as
orderly and efficient as possible.

IMHO the best pilots are the ones who "detach" themselves and shift
their Point Of View to that of the aircraft itself. *They aren't
thinking about the flight in terms of how they perceive it as an
occupant from their particular seating position or their control
stick. *Thinking in terms of the aircraft and the air around it is
infinitely better than trying to act as a manipulator of levers and
pulleys inside a tube.

--Noel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

addendum: I made a low save over Richard Bachs grass airstrip
yesterday............and I had my funny hat on........

Brad