If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
"Happy Dog" wrote in message
... As others here have pointed out, many did not have the means to evacuate. Many, many did. Disagree with that or quit wasting time. And even if some *do* have themselves to blame, that does not argue against the rescue coordinators *also* being to blame. Did I say that? No, I didn't. I didn't say you said that. I was just adding balance. (I think we've entered a miscommunication loop.) this has happened throughout the world and throughout human history, so it should take no one by surprise. Nor should it be misrepresented as unusually characteristic of impoverished people or welfare recipients; sadly, it is universal. Well, we can disagree then and wait for the facts to reveal themselves. I haven't enough faith in newspaper reports to use them as solid evidence. But, FWIW, from the reports so far, you're losing badly. In what way? For me to be "losing" so far, you'd have to be able to show quantitatively, from the reports so far, that the extent of the violence in New Orleans is greater than has broken out during collapses of civil authority in other times and places throughout the world, Did I say that? No. I didn't. Then perhaps we're misunderstanding each other here too. My point was that to plausibly attribute the violence in N.O. to welfare assistance, you'd have to show, at a minimum, that there is more violence in N.O. than in otherwise-comparable circumstances where welfare assistance is absent. Nothing in "the reports so far" even *attempts* to make that comparison. (Nor has anyone shown--though you and others have flatly asserted--that the perpetrators of the violence or looting were recipients of welfare assistance. If, as it appears, the most serious violence is coming from gang members, then it is at least as plausible to speculate that they support themselves by drug dealing instead. If the Prohibition-era Mafia had been thriving in New Orleans when the hurricane struck, don't you suppose *their* gangs would have taken over too when the police department collapsed?) --Gary |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
"cjcampbell" wrote in message
oups.com... One of the big problems that we are dealing with is a culture of dependency. It is too easy to extend our perceptions of that problem to a point where people don't realize how inter-dependent they are. A culture of dependency is classless. I see it in rich and poor alike, among all races and people. It basically says, "I cannot do anything for myself. It is up to the government, or the rich, or somebody else, to provide for all my wants and needs." It is basically a refusal to grow up, to remain forever a child who is taken care of by its parents. It's possible, of course, to be excessively dependent. But in general, being able to create institutions that we can depend on for protection (from violence, from the aftermath of disasters, from unbreathable air...) is one of the great blessings of civilization. And as the example of pilots relying in part on SAR illustrates, such dependency is hardly tantamount to an attitude that "I cannot do anything for myself". --Gary |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Gary Drescher wrote:
The folks in N.O. are not treating the National Guard as an enemy--in part because of the leadership of Gen. Honore (I'm thinking of the footage of him running around ordering his combat-stance troops to "Point those goddamn weapons down" so they wouldn't appear unnecessarily hostile and provoke violence instead of preventing it). Smart guy! I don't watch TV, though, so I must have missed that footage. Keeping the mission peaceful seems like the only way to make the relief effort work. It's hard to avoid hearing the Bushisms, though. The Bushism about shooting-looters-to-kill combined with stories about people being shot makes it seem like someone at the top ain't though things through. http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Police_s...2C _five_dead - Police shoot eight gunmen on New Orleans bridge, five dead. Bearing arms isn't illegal in this country -- what really happened? What about the due-process rights of those "gunmen"? http://cryptome.org/kat05/pict58.jpg -- Leonard Thomas, 23, cries after a SWAT team burst into the flooded home he and his family were living in on Monday, Sept. 5, 2005. Neighbors had reported that they were squatting in the house in the wake of Hurricane Katrina but the authorities left after his family proved they owned the house. Some rescuers are not taking any more food and water to those who have decided to stay in an effort to force them out. (AP Photo/Rick Bowmer) Scary... Let's just hope that when I walk down a street in Virginia that my belt-clip cell-phone holder doesn't look like a gun-holster, that I'm not mistaken for a looter, that I'm not mistaken a squatter, or (as happened to a friend recently when he was staying as his brother's house) that I'm not on the receiving end of false-alarm for a "robbery in progress". Let's furthermore hope that no TFR's pop up while I'm in the air, so that I don't get mistaken for a terrorist. But, they are making some progress: http://cryptome.org/kat05/pict57.jpg - A military helicopter drops a sandbag as work continues to repair the 17th Street canal levee Monday, Sept. 5, 2005, in New Orleans. (AP Photo/David J. Phillip) And, just for balance: http://cryptome.org/kat05/pict39.jpg (the AP caption is useless) -Luke |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
"Happy Dog" wrote in message ... "cjcampbell" Too many people try to fight the culture of dependency with a culture of self-reliance. Although it may be somewhat of an improvement, the culture of self-reliance says "I am responsible for myself. I have no obligation to anyone else, nor does anyone have any obligation towards me." Really? I doubt you'll find many self-reliant people who would agree. That's a strawman central to the rest of your argument. Neither would psychologists or other "self-help" types. He's engaging in a logical fallacy of "false-alternative". Tom S. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
"cjcampbell" wrote in message oups.com... Happy Dog wrote: "cjcampbell" Too many people try to fight the culture of dependency with a culture of self-reliance. Although it may be somewhat of an improvement, the culture of self-reliance says "I am responsible for myself. I have no obligation to anyone else, nor does anyone have any obligation towards me." Really? I doubt you'll find many self-reliant people who would agree. That's a strawman central to the rest of your argument. moo You are ignorant of a couple of things: Look in a mirror. 1) Self reliant people don't have to agree with me in order to be wrong. 2) You do not have a clue what a straw man argument is. It's that piece you just created "Although it may be somewhat of an improvement, the culture of self-reliance says "I am responsible for myself. I have no obligation to anyone else, nor does anyone have any obligation towards me." Tom |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Luke Scharf wrote:
And, just for balance: http://cryptome.org/kat05/pict39.jpg (the AP caption is useless) So's the photo without some sort of caption. What's in the bag? Looks like it might be a lionfish, but it would take a real stupid man to hold the bag like that if it were. George Patterson Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
"cjcampbell" wrote in message
Too many people try to fight the culture of dependency with a culture of self-reliance. Although it may be somewhat of an improvement, the culture of self-reliance says "I am responsible for myself. I have no obligation to anyone else, nor does anyone have any obligation towards me." Really? I doubt you'll find many self-reliant people who would agree. That's a strawman central to the rest of your argument. moo You are ignorant of a couple of things: 1) Self reliant people don't have to agree with me in order to be wrong. It isn't a right or wrong issue. You are mischaracterizing the position of people who advocate self-reliance. 2) You do not have a clue what a straw man argument is. Idiot. You have constructed a caricature of the "culture of self-reliance" by defining it a hermit lifestyle. That is a textbook strawman argument. moo |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
"Gary Drescher" GLDrescher
In what way? For me to be "losing" so far, you'd have to be able to show quantitatively, from the reports so far, that the extent of the violence in New Orleans is greater than has broken out during collapses of civil authority in other times and places throughout the world, Did I say that? No. I didn't. Then perhaps we're misunderstanding each other here too. My point was that to plausibly attribute the violence in N.O. to welfare assistance, you'd have to show, at a minimum, that there is more violence in N.O. than in otherwise-comparable circumstances where welfare assistance is absent. No, I wouldn't. That is only making the issue more complex since we'd also have to take into account a bunch of other variables. Nothing in "the reports so far" even *attempts* to make that comparison. (Nor has anyone shown--though you and others have flatly asserted--that the perpetrators of the violence or looting were recipients of welfare assistance. If, as it appears, the most serious violence is coming from gang members, then it is at least as plausible to speculate that they support themselves by drug dealing instead. If the Prohibition-era Mafia had been thriving in New Orleans when the hurricane struck, don't you suppose *their* gangs would have taken over too when the police department collapsed?) At this point, you're just grasping at straws to make your point. You seem to have at least as much of a bias in favour of welfare as anyone here has against it. And it's resulted in a bunch of irrelevant tangents. We'll see whether I'm correct or not soon enough. moo |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
"Doof" wrote in message
... "Happy Dog" wrote in message ... "cjcampbell" Too many people try to fight the culture of dependency with a culture of self-reliance. Although it may be somewhat of an improvement, the culture of self-reliance says "I am responsible for myself. I have no obligation to anyone else, nor does anyone have any obligation towards me." Really? I doubt you'll find many self-reliant people who would agree. That's a strawman central to the rest of your argument. Neither would psychologists or other "self-help" types. He's engaging in a logical fallacy of "false-alternative". Strawman, actually. His statement is a caricature of self-reliance advocates. Did you mean "false dilemma", BTW? moo |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
"Happy Dog" wrote in message
... You seem to have at least as much of a bias in favour of welfare as anyone here has against it. And this supposed bias of mine is demonstrated by my asking for evidence to support the connection between welfare and N.O. violence that you and others have asserted? Or do you think that *I've* made unsupported factual assertions about welfare? If so, can you quote one? --Gary |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Hurricane relief | Dave Stadt | Piloting | 94 | September 8th 05 07:02 PM |
Hurricane relief | Gary Drescher | Instrument Flight Rules | 51 | September 8th 05 03:33 AM |
Hurricane relief | Dan Luke | Instrument Flight Rules | 16 | September 5th 05 05:20 PM |
Hurricane relief | [email protected] | Piloting | 0 | September 5th 05 01:03 AM |
Hurricane relief | Gary Drescher | Piloting | 0 | September 4th 05 02:27 AM |