Hawker vs. Glider Midair - with photo!

"alexy" wrote in message
...
"Aluckyguess" wrote:



I would say this is correct. If the glider came in from the side how would
the Hawker see him. I say they are lucky to be alive.


How can a glider hit an airborne jet from the side? It can happen, but
the glider is well in front of the jet until the point of impact.
Good timing
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"Aluckyguess" wrote:


As long as the glider doesnt pull out in front of the other aircraft.

Please explain the maneuver you have in mind here. How does a glider
"pull out in front of" a biz jet? Maybe after overtaking him?g
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Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.

In article . com,
wrote:

The glider pilot was circling when he was hit. He reported that he saw
the jet just a blink before the impact with no possibility of evasive
action.

At 16k, what kind of vertical rate of ascent could the glider have been
experiencing in a thermal that day?

"Jim Vincent" wrote in message
. ..
I think for all intents, the glider would have been effectively a small
dot in the sky except for the last seconds.

No, it's the Hawker that was a small (2 meters) motionless white dot in the
white sky. The thermalling glider was an 18-meter white cross moving against
the desert background.

The jet was descending, wasn't it? That means no soot trail. Which, I am
convinced, is the only part of the jet visible head-on from far enough to
have any practical chance at all to evade, at glider speed.
--
Yuliy

"Aluckyguess" wrote in message
...

How can a glider hit an airborne jet from the side? It can happen, but
the glider is well in front of the jet until the point of impact.
Good timing

Assuming glider Vne of 150 kts and jet speed of 300 kts, the widest possible
azimuth angle from jet to glider is 26.5 degrees off center at any time
before impact (linear path).

At a more typical for a thermalling glider 60 kts this angle is reduced to
11.3 degrees.

Which one do you call "from the side"?
--
Yuliy

Yuliy, I assume this is the degrees off center for the jet pilot, what
will it be for the glider pilot under similar conditions. I forgot my
math, but sounds like we, as the slower aircraft, need much more
scanning then other faster aircrafts, like 360 degrees? So much for see
and avoid, unless you thermaling...

Ramy


Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
"Aluckyguess" wrote in message
...

How can a glider hit an airborne jet from the side? It can happen, but
the glider is well in front of the jet until the point of impact.
Good timing

Assuming glider Vne of 150 kts and jet speed of 300 kts, the widest possible
azimuth angle from jet to glider is 26.5 degrees off center at any time
before impact (linear path).

At a more typical for a thermalling glider 60 kts this angle is reduced to
11.3 degrees.

Which one do you call "from the side"?
--
Yuliy

Ron Natalie wrote:

Because the rule is that ALL powered aircraft ALWAYS give way to ALL
gliders and, in uncontrolled airspace,

There is NO SUCH RULE.

Well, there is in every country that adheres to the ICAO treaties and
annexes and you'd better believe it if you ever fly outside the US. I
know the US is the most non-compliant signatory but I'd be surprised if
these fundamental rules don't apply in the US. They certainly apply to
every US aircraft flying internationally.

I could of course be wrong - I make a habit of it.

All aircraft are required to see and avoid regardless of the right of
way rules.

Absolutely. But when they collide in spite of this, the powered
aircraft is prima facie at fault.

If you flew a glider into another aircraft from behind it would be
at fault. The overtaking rules do not have an exemption for class.

I'll stick to what I said.

1. In VMC, ALL aircraft are required to maintain a lookout so as to see
and avoid ALL other aircraft.
2. When on converging courses, powered aircraft are required to give
way to gliders. Powered aircraft give way to airships who give way to
gliders who give way to balloons.

There is, of course, a lot more to it than this but this is where the
lawyers, insurance companies - and probably the FAA unless you're right
- will start.

GC

Aluckyguess wrote:

How could the powered aircraft be at fault if the glider hit him from the
side.

1. I love the concept of a 300kg, 60kt glider "hitting" a 10,000kg,
300kt bizjet - especially from the side! You'll notice in the photos
that the glider's spar joiner is lodged in the radome, not the side
window. It's physically impossible for a 60kt anything to hit a 300kt
anything from the side.

2. Because he failed to see and avoid the glider. ALL aircraft in VMC
are required to see and avoid other aircraft and they avoid them by
following the right of way rules - the powered aircraft alters course to
avoid the glider.

There is no way to know who is at fault.

That's true for you and me. But the courts and the insurance companies
and the FAA will certainly find a way no matter how hard it is. They
tend to work at these things more persistently than you and I do.

If you cant see it you cant avoid it. I think the glider will end up at
fault.

You can see and avoid anything if you go slowly and carefully enough.
Yes, I know that's not how powered aircraft are generally operated but
the law says that's how they SHOULD be operated.

It's no excuse to hitting a guy on a bike that you were in a big car
travelling very fast even if you were under the speed limit.

Like when I hit another car from behind, prima facie it's my fault.

Not always.

ALWAYS, prima facie.

GC
GC

Jim Logajan wrote:
Graeme Cant gcantinter@tnodedotnet wrote:
Like when I hit another car from behind, prima facie it's my fault.

I'd bet that is no longer the case. There is an insurance fraud tactic
where the perps deliberately cause rear-end accidents by pulling in front
of an innocent driver's vehicle and slams on the brakes. See for example:

http://personalinsure.about.com/cs/v.../aa062203a.htm

Yes, we have that scam here too. Nevertheless, the onus is always on
the car behind to make his case. As I said, prima facie, the rear car
is at fault.

GC

Discus 44 wrote:
There have been many photos of the Jet. While this is remarable, are
there any photos of the remains of the glider? It might shed some
light on where the jet ran into the glider.

The Hawker photos do show it. I believe the piece projecting at 1
o'clock from where the radome was is the spar joiner for the outer
panel. It would appear the glider was hit just outside mid-span.
Probably the right wing.

GC

Anyone with common sense
can see the Jet hit the glider and not the other way around as so many
so called :"journalists" have intimated. It is strange that so many
unknowledgeable people seem to be arm chair experts about this.

I would liek to see FLARM adopted here. It may be a better way than
having Xponders and ATC involved with soaring.