Tow Plane Upsets......

Clearly some gliders are worse than others, and yes, better if in the hands of a good pilot. But even a moment's distraction can cause the good pilot to find himself/herself in a diverging and irrecoverable situation (kiting).. Whilst my suggestion to ground those gliders was slightly tongue in cheek, would that be preferable to continuing to see tug pilots "grounded" in a literal sense, with the miscreant sailing on unharmed?
The sustained force, mainly horizontal, from the rope really slows down the tug. 2-3 seconds of 700 lb force leaves the tug slow with a less effective elevator, and,as Chris Rollings noted, an elevator which may be stalled.
Sensor measuring sustained deceleration (not just a brief jerk/impulse) is maybe the measure best used to automatically jettison the rope at the tug end?

Le mercredi 26 avril 2017 03:45:04 UTC+2, George Haeh a écritÂ*:
Yes, I know that's taught, but does anybody put the student high so that
release is required.

Just as with spins, there's a difference between being told what to do -
and
actually going into the situation.

Putting a student high so that a release is required would be plain stupid and reckless behaviour of an instructor.
Any exercise needs to be planned in a way that the student has some room for error, and that the instructor can recover the situation if the student finally fails to do so.
In a high position there is no such margin. There are situations which just can't be trained.

Bert
TW

On Wednesday, 26 April 2017 18:11:04 UTC+10, Tango Whisky wrote:

In a high position there is no such margin. There are situations which just can't be trained.

Can you kite in Condor or Silent Wings?

Originally Posted by George Haeh

We train boxing the wake, cannot release and slack rope recovery, and
expect
demonstration of some or all of these items on checkouts.

Hands up anybody who trains release when high on the towplane?

If students have never done this, how can we expect them to do it when
needed before or after license?

Good point and it is obviously not part of any training syllabus of which I am aware. If done at altitude....2 or 3K feet and done only momentarily I feel it would be a reasonable thing to do BUT only with the towpilots knowledge that it is going to be done and with some kind of signal immediately before hand. I am confident I can get out of anything I can get into with sufficient altitude. Then again this would depend on the willingness and preparation of the tow pilot. JMHO.

Walt

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 4:11:04 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mercredi 26 avril 2017 03:45:04 UTC+2, George Haeh a écritÂ*:
Yes, I know that's taught, but does anybody put the student high so that
release is required.

Just as with spins, there's a difference between being told what to do -
and
actually going into the situation.

Putting a student high so that a release is required would be plain stupid and reckless behaviour of an instructor.
Any exercise needs to be planned in a way that the student has some room for error, and that the instructor can recover the situation if the student finally fails to do so.
In a high position there is no such margin. There are situations which just can't be trained.

Bert
TW

What can't be trained is the dangerous divergent situation. Agreed on all else.

-Evan / T8

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 8:43:08 AM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
George Haeh;944170 Wrote:
We train boxing the wake, cannot release and slack rope recovery, and
expect
demonstration of some or all of these items on checkouts.

Hands up anybody who trains release when high on the towplane?

If students have never done this, how can we expect them to do it when
needed before or after license?

Good point and it is obviously not part of any training syllabus of
which I am aware. If done at altitude....2 or 3K feet and done only
momentarily I feel it would be a reasonable thing to do BUT only with
the towpilots knowledge that it is going to be done and with some kind
of signal immediately before hand. I am confident I can get out of
anything I can get into with sufficient altitude. Then again this would
depend on the willingness and preparation of the tow pilot. JMHO.

Walt




--
Walt Connelly

This tow pilot will not agree to putting aircraft out of control at any altitude.
UH

On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 4:31:44 AM UTC-4, Justin Couch wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 April 2017 18:11:04 UTC+10, Tango Whisky wrote:

In a high position there is no such margin. There are situations which just can't be trained.

Can you kite in Condor or Silent Wings?

The ability to kite without the tug releasing automatically would be a great feature request for Condor_3. I'd also like to practice with a simulation of towing through wave related rotor. The first time that I recognized previously experienced Condor scenarios/sceneries in the real world, I was startled, 'that looks just like Condor'. Condor training would be beneficial..

In 2015 I ran the wing of a venerable_soaring_great who got trashed in rotor and broke the tow rope. Both pilots made it back to the airfield. Their account was harrowing. It can happen to anyone.

I was once air retrieving someone from an airport over 50 NM away from
Moriarty. We briefed thoroughly before takeoff that I would level off
and reduce power slowly at 10,000'. He later told me that, as I was
leveling off, he was looking inside the cockpit and missed it and lost
sight of me. He immediately released, which was great, but it was late
in the day and he did not have glide home. I told him to land and I
would give him another tow for free but he said he'd try for home. I
flew along with him looking for and guiding him to thermals. ...And he
beat me back to Moriarty. But he released immediately on losing sight
of me.

On 4/25/2017 7:40 PM, George Haeh wrote:
Yes, I know that's taught, but does anybody put the student high so that
release is required.

Just as with spins, there's a difference between being told what to do -
and
actually going into the situation.


--
Dan, 5J

Just thinking of the physics here and remembering that the problem is
with the upward vector on the tow rope exerting so much force on the
Schweizer release that the tuggie can't release the rope. The following
assumes enough altitude to recover, not early in the tow.

Now, if the tug's tail gets pulled up sufficiently, the force vector on
the rope is more aligned with the longitudinal axis of the tug than the
vertical, thereby relieving the release of the upward (with respect to
the axis) force. Therefore the tug should be able to release as his
nose gets pointed towards the ground. Am I willing to prove this
theory? NO...

Also, if the glider is being pulled down via its CG release, the wing
should be fully stalled given the AoA of the wing in a (near) horizontal
descent with the fuselage level to the horizon. Application of rudder in
the glider should immediately induce a spin allowing the combination to
gently descend like a maple seed. Am I willing to prove this theory? NO...

And, when the tug hits the ground, the glider is free of the downward
pull of the rope and the resulting fire will generate a thermal allowing
the glider to climb away safely. Am I willing to prove this theory? NO...


On 4/26/2017 6:26 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 4:11:04 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mercredi 26 avril 2017 03:45:04 UTC+2, George Haeh a écrit :
Yes, I know that's taught, but does anybody put the student high so that
release is required.

Just as with spins, there's a difference between being told what to do -
and
actually going into the situation.
Putting a student high so that a release is required would be plain stupid and reckless behaviour of an instructor.
Any exercise needs to be planned in a way that the student has some room for error, and that the instructor can recover the situation if the student finally fails to do so.
In a high position there is no such margin. There are situations which just can't be trained.

Bert
TW
What can't be trained is the dangerous divergent situation. Agreed on all else.

-Evan / T8

--
Dan, 5J

This tow pilot will not agree to putting aircraft out of control at any altitude.
UH

I can imagine that a severe kiting upset of the type under discussion could put a towplane uncomfortably close to its negative load factor limits. It might also expose the tug's tailplane to loads beyond those for which it was designed or tested.

--Bob K.