Safety of winch launch vrs. aero tow?

"Andreas Maurer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:03:18 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:


There does seem to be a condition experienced by some people who find it
hard to make fast mental adjustments from one set of conditions to
another.
One moment they are setting on the ground and 35 seconds later then are
high
in the sky at the controls of a glider and struggling to cope. The rush
of
a winch launch may create a sensory overload beyond their ability to
manage.

Hmmm... I never saw this during a winch launch yet. The work load
during a winch launch is very low compared to an aerotow - the only
thing you really need to watch is airspeed and the "bang" of a rope
break.

The situation you describe (when the pilot gets behind the plane)
happens much more often during very low maneuvering (like low
approaches) - suddenly pilot looses track of airspeed and stalls, for
example (just as the clip I posted shows).



Bye
Andreas

It's probably because you and your friends are accustomed to winch launch as
a normal way to get gliders into the air. In the USA, winch launch is still
a novelty for most glider pilots. I very much agree that the workload is
far less during a winch launch as compared to airtow, but the sensations are
quite novel for the uninitiated.

I once gave a 747 captain his first glider ride on a winch. After release,
I asked him what he thought of the launch. His answer, "I have no idea what
just happened" - "I have never felt so far behind an aircraft".

Bill Daniels

In power planes I often wondered how high I would need to turn around,
and the biggest difference seemed to be how well I was climbing.
In a heavy Piper Arrow on a hot day, We couldn't climb fast enough
to ever glide back regardless how high we went if we did a
straight out or 45 departure. Departing downwind was another story,
of course.

On hot days with heavy loads at Avenal, the tug sometimes turns very
gently at low altitudes to downwind. I recall flying a two seater open
cockpit on a very hot day and seeing miserable climb out of us
and the 150/150. In our case not a problem with all the
flat ground, but still a bit disconcerting to be
so far out and low...

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
nk.net...
I once gave a 747 captain his first glider ride on a winch. After
release,
I asked him what he thought of the launch. His answer, "I have no idea
what
just happened" - "I have never felt so far behind an aircraft".

Bill Daniels


He probably missed not having his co-pilot to do the flying for him.

Pat Barfield :-)

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 19:05:17 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:


It's probably because you and your friends are accustomed to winch launch as
a normal way to get gliders into the air. In the USA, winch launch is still
a novelty for most glider pilots. I very much agree that the workload is
far less during a winch launch as compared to airtow, but the sensations are
quite novel for the uninitiated.

Sure this is the case. But it's nothing that coud not be trained away
with 30 winch launches...
Bye
Andreas

What in-air signals? I had no radio, but even if I had it was clear that the
tug pilot was having an interesting day, so I wouldn't have wanted to
distract him.

Fortunately this was in East Anglia in the UK, so there was a constant set
of fields each about the size of a normal gliding club site.

"Shirley" wrote in message
...
Chris Reed wrote:

We climbed (very slowly) to 400ft and then
stayed there while we flew in a straight line at
least 3 miles from the airfield. It's the only time
I've been field spotting on tow for such a long time.

Not suprisingly, I failed to soar once we reached
the release height of 2,000 ft

Was it not possible for you to use the in-air signals to steer the tow
pilot
back toward the field?

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:3fa5f571$1@darkstar...
In power planes I often wondered how high I would need to turn around,
and the biggest difference seemed to be how well I was climbing.
In a heavy Piper Arrow on a hot day, We couldn't climb fast enough
to ever glide back regardless how high we went if we did a
straight out or 45 departure. Departing downwind was another story,
of course.

On hot days with heavy loads at Avenal, the tug sometimes turns very
gently at low altitudes to downwind. I recall flying a two seater open
cockpit on a very hot day and seeing miserable climb out of us
and the 150/150. In our case not a problem with all the
flat ground, but still a bit disconcerting to be
so far out and low...

Back in around 1970 a power instructor who had witnessed glider 200 foot 180
turns back to the runway wanted to try some in a Cessna 150. I rode with
him as we tried a few at a safe altitude. The 150 was one of the old ones
with a straight tail and manual flaps.

The glider technique of a 45 degree banked turn was very marginal. We then
experimented with some more aggressive maneuvers. The best seem to be a
sort of diving 180 degree rolling turn with a pullout from the dive on the
reciprocal heading. We came out of the dive headed towards the runway at
high airspeed but in ground effect which got us to the runway with ease.

Once we were confident of our technique, we tried a few at Caddo Mills, TX.
At the time, Caddo Mills was just abandoned runways with no buildings or
fences and surrounded by alfalfa fields. The 45 degree turn never made it
back but the diving roll did work if you were quick and aggressive.

We both agreed that the conventional instruction of not trying a 180 below
about 500 feet was best.

Bill Daniels

Chris Reed wrote:
What in-air signals? I had no radio,

Well, in the US we have this
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/GB...t/signals.html

it was clear that the tug pilot was having an
interesting day, so I wouldn't have wanted to
distract him.

A valid point.

Tony V.

"Bill Daniels" wrote:


"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:3fa5f571$1@darkstar...
In power planes I often wondered how high I would need to turn around,
and the biggest difference seemed to be how well I was climbing.
In a heavy Piper Arrow on a hot day, We couldn't climb fast enough
to ever glide back regardless how high we went if we did a
straight out or 45 departure. Departing downwind was another story,
of course.

On hot days with heavy loads at Avenal, the tug sometimes turns very
gently at low altitudes to downwind. I recall flying a two seater open
cockpit on a very hot day and seeing miserable climb out of us
and the 150/150. In our case not a problem with all the
flat ground, but still a bit disconcerting to be
so far out and low...

Back in around 1970 a power instructor who had witnessed glider 200 foot 180
turns back to the runway wanted to try some in a Cessna 150. I rode with
him as we tried a few at a safe altitude. The 150 was one of the old ones
with a straight tail and manual flaps.

The glider technique of a 45 degree banked turn was very marginal. We then
experimented with some more aggressive maneuvers. The best seem to be a
sort of diving 180 degree rolling turn with a pullout from the dive on the
reciprocal heading. We came out of the dive headed towards the runway at
high airspeed but in ground effect which got us to the runway with ease.

Once we were confident of our technique, we tried a few at Caddo Mills, TX.
At the time, Caddo Mills was just abandoned runways with no buildings or
fences and surrounded by alfalfa fields. The 45 degree turn never made it
back but the diving roll did work if you were quick and aggressive.

We both agreed that the conventional instruction of not trying a 180 below
about 500 feet was best.

Bill Daniels

Many years ago a highly respected aerobatic pilot in UK (still working
today) wrote an article in our Pilot magazine on this subject. He
reminded us that three things were required:
1. A rapid 180 degree change of heading.
2. Minimum loss of height.
3. Normal airspeed at the end of the manoever.
Controversially, he maintained that a highly banked slipping turn
satisfies all three criteria. The rate of decent is very high during
the turn, but the duration is so short that it results in less height
loss than either of the two alternatives (eg:slow and gentle or fast
and furious), and the airspeed is normal throughout.
Just don't forget to keep loads of top rudder on.

- Colin

From a UK perspective the signals are unexpected! We have one signal from
glider to tug (Can't release) and two from tug to glider (release now,
spoilers out). These are the same as the US signals.

UK tug pilots are an independent breed - I imagine that trying to tell them
where to go could leave you dropped in fierce sink. On the other hand, prior
negotiation coupled with flattery can get you to that good thermal
(especially if you repay the tow in the bar later on).


"Tony Verhulst" wrote in message
...
Chris Reed wrote:
What in-air signals? I had no radio,

Well, in the US we have this
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/GB...t/signals.html

it was clear that the tug pilot was having an
interesting day, so I wouldn't have wanted to
distract him.

A valid point.

Tony V.

Colin wrote:

Many years ago a highly respected aerobatic pilot in UK (still working
today) wrote an article in our Pilot magazine on this subject. He
reminded us that three things were required:
1. A rapid 180 degree change of heading.
2. Minimum loss of height.
3. Normal airspeed at the end of the manoever.
Controversially, he maintained that a highly banked slipping turn
satisfies all three criteria. The rate of decent is very high during
the turn, but the duration is so short that it results in less height
loss than either of the two alternatives (eg:slow and gentle or fast
and furious), and the airspeed is normal throughout.
Just don't forget to keep loads of top rudder on.

- Colin


I don't see why the turn should be a slipping one, you certainly will
loose more height in a slipping turn than in a normal one. And height
loss is what make the turn possible or not.