"The New Soldier" by John Kerry et al

Apparently John Kerry co-authored a book in 1971 called "The New
Soldier." There seems to be varying differences of opinion about how
much of it he actually wrote (other than his US Senate testimony during
the "Winter Soldier" hearings), but his name is certainly prominently
displayed on the cover (see
http://www.newsmax.com/images/headli...NewSoldier.jpg or
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...newsol_cov.jpg).

Copies are apparently going for several hundreds of dollars on eBay;
talk of a cover-up and the liberal Democrats trying to destroy all
copies seem far-fetched (try finding copies of any obscure book from
1971), although there are rumours that both copies are currently
'unavailable' at the Library of Congress.

Has anyone with military service actually read "The New Soldier" and can
comment on it contents?



His "Winter Soldier" testimony apparently quoted in the book is
certainly still controversial:

"Much of Kerry's speech before Congress painted his fellow GIs as so
brutal that, today, they could easily be mistaken for Saddam Hussein's
Fedayeen killers.

He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut
off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for
fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of
South Vietnam."

There's a NGO link quoting some of Kerry's testimony at:
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...er_sfrc_71.htm.

There are also discussions of the accuracy of the testimony, such as:
"After Senator Mark O. Hatfield read the Winter Soldier testimony into
the Congressional Record, he asked for an official investigation. When
the Naval Investigate Service did just that, many of the veterans
refused to cooperate (despite protections against self-incrimination).
One soldier admitted that his testimony had been coached by members of
the Nation of Islam; exact details of the atrocity he'd seen now escaped
his memory. Several veterans hunted down by Naval investigators swore
they had never been to Detroit and couldn't imagine who would have used
their identities. (Somehow this episode was left out of the "Winter
Soldier" chapter of Brinkley's book, but the details can be found in
Guenter Lewy's "America in Vietnam" and in Mackubin Thomas Owens's
account in the latest National Review.)"
-
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...ljiby.asp?pg=2


Lots of conflicting stories, such as:
- http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/k/kerry.htm
- http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/...0402130943.asp
- http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...0/131219.shtml

Were you even alive in those days?

Here is the deal. It will never be settled. It wasn't settled back then
and it won't be settled now. For the next several elections, the candidates
will all have been on the wrong side of the argument according to some
folks.

Bottom line is: we all took our stands at the time, all were flawed by a
system that was inherently flawed and there were no winners.

Just let it go.

Loki

"Stop SPAM" wrote in message
...
Apparently John Kerry co-authored a book in 1971 called "The New
Soldier." There seems to be varying differences of opinion about how
much of it he actually wrote (other than his US Senate testimony during
the "Winter Soldier" hearings), but his name is certainly prominently
displayed on the cover (see
http://www.newsmax.com/images/headli...NewSoldier.jpg or
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...newsol_cov.jpg).

Copies are apparently going for several hundreds of dollars on eBay;
talk of a cover-up and the liberal Democrats trying to destroy all
copies seem far-fetched (try finding copies of any obscure book from
1971), although there are rumours that both copies are currently
'unavailable' at the Library of Congress.

Has anyone with military service actually read "The New Soldier" and can
comment on it contents?



His "Winter Soldier" testimony apparently quoted in the book is
certainly still controversial:

"Much of Kerry's speech before Congress painted his fellow GIs as so
brutal that, today, they could easily be mistaken for Saddam Hussein's
Fedayeen killers.

He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut
off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for
fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of
South Vietnam."

There's a NGO link quoting some of Kerry's testimony at:
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...er_sfrc_71.htm.

There are also discussions of the accuracy of the testimony, such as:
"After Senator Mark O. Hatfield read the Winter Soldier testimony into
the Congressional Record, he asked for an official investigation. When
the Naval Investigate Service did just that, many of the veterans
refused to cooperate (despite protections against self-incrimination).
One soldier admitted that his testimony had been coached by members of
the Nation of Islam; exact details of the atrocity he'd seen now escaped
his memory. Several veterans hunted down by Naval investigators swore
they had never been to Detroit and couldn't imagine who would have used
their identities. (Somehow this episode was left out of the "Winter
Soldier" chapter of Brinkley's book, but the details can be found in
Guenter Lewy's "America in Vietnam" and in Mackubin Thomas Owens's
account in the latest National Review.)"
-

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...ljiby.asp?pg=2


Lots of conflicting stories, such as:
- http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/k/kerry.htm
- http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/...0402130943.asp
- http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...0/131219.shtml

loki wrote:
Were you even alive in those days?

Yes I was, and in fact I well remember Kerry's "Winter Soldier" testimony.

Here is the deal. It will never be settled. It wasn't settled back then
and it won't be settled now. For the next several elections, the candidates
will all have been on the wrong side of the argument according to some
folks.

I'm not interested in whether or not it is "being settled." You're right
- the Vietnam conflict never will "be settled". The issue, to me, is not
"settling" Vietnam.

I can respect someone who is totally anti-war. They have their opinion,
I have mine, and we live in a land where the First Amendment gives us
both the right to have and publically state that opinion...

But I abhore someone who tries to fence sit and take conflicting stands
on an issue, any issue, much less one as important as the military.
Kerry, IMHO, is trying to be on both sides of the issue.

Trying to run as a combat vet and on your war record, and then being
involved in serious protests against not only the war but against the
military and its soldiers (read Kerry's "Winter Soldier" testimony and
see what he says about American soldiers) is trying to work both sides
of the issue.

I'd rather have a politician who disagrees with me, but who is at least
consistent in their views, than one who will change their beliefs at the
drop of a hat depending on what their political consultants and
pollsters tell them. And that applies equally to both the Republicans
and the Democrats.

Bottom line is: we all took our stands at the time, all were flawed by a
system that was inherently flawed and there were no winners.

Just let it go.

When politicians become consistent, I will. Of course, porcines may need
FAA clearance before then, but I can always hope.

Loki

"Stop SPAM" wrote in message
...

Apparently John Kerry co-authored a book in 1971 called "The New
Soldier." There seems to be varying differences of opinion about how
much of it he actually wrote (other than his US Senate testimony during
the "Winter Soldier" hearings), but his name is certainly prominently
displayed on the cover (see
http://www.newsmax.com/images/headli...NewSoldier.jpg or
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...newsol_cov.jpg).

Copies are apparently going for several hundreds of dollars on eBay;
talk of a cover-up and the liberal Democrats trying to destroy all
copies seem far-fetched (try finding copies of any obscure book from
1971), although there are rumours that both copies are currently
'unavailable' at the Library of Congress.

Has anyone with military service actually read "The New Soldier" and can
comment on it contents?



His "Winter Soldier" testimony apparently quoted in the book is
certainly still controversial:

"Much of Kerry's speech before Congress painted his fellow GIs as so
brutal that, today, they could easily be mistaken for Saddam Hussein's
Fedayeen killers.

He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut
off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for
fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of
South Vietnam."

There's a NGO link quoting some of Kerry's testimony at:
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...er_sfrc_71.htm.

There are also discussions of the accuracy of the testimony, such as:
"After Senator Mark O. Hatfield read the Winter Soldier testimony into
the Congressional Record, he asked for an official investigation. When
the Naval Investigate Service did just that, many of the veterans
refused to cooperate (despite protections against self-incrimination).
One soldier admitted that his testimony had been coached by members of
the Nation of Islam; exact details of the atrocity he'd seen now escaped
his memory. Several veterans hunted down by Naval investigators swore
they had never been to Detroit and couldn't imagine who would have used
their identities. (Somehow this episode was left out of the "Winter
Soldier" chapter of Brinkley's book, but the details can be found in
Guenter Lewy's "America in Vietnam" and in Mackubin Thomas Owens's
account in the latest National Review.)"
-


http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...ljiby.asp?pg=2


Lots of conflicting stories, such as:
- http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/k/kerry.htm
- http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/...0402130943.asp
- http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...0/131219.shtml

"Peter Skelton" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:30:49 -0600, Stop SPAM
wrote:

loki wrote:
Were you even alive in those days?

Yes I was, and in fact I well remember Kerry's "Winter Soldier"
testimony.

Here is the deal. It will never be settled. It wasn't settled back
then
and it won't be settled now. For the next several elections, the
candidates
will all have been on the wrong side of the argument according to some
folks.

I'm not interested in whether or not it is "being settled." You're right
- the Vietnam conflict never will "be settled". The issue, to me, is not
"settling" Vietnam.

I can respect someone who is totally anti-war. They have their opinion,
I have mine, and we live in a land where the First Amendment gives us
both the right to have and publically state that opinion...

But I abhore someone who tries to fence sit and take conflicting stands
on an issue, any issue, much less one as important as the military.
Kerry, IMHO, is trying to be on both sides of the issue.

You have a problem with people who do their duty even if they
don't like it?

I believe his gist was that Kerry demonstrates a remarkable propensity for
trying to have his cake and eat it too when it comes to things military
related. He wants to be considered a Vietnam war hero, yet he condemned the
US soldiers, airmen, and sailors who fought there as being war criminals; he
wants to claim his undying dedication to all things military, yet his voting
record in regards to military programs says otherwise; he wants to display
his medals for his own benefit, after making a big show of tossing them in
protest; he wants to condemn Bush for allegedly not serving his entire
reserve committment, while he mysteriously never seemed to even *have* one
himself; and he wants to pillory Bush for alleged special treatment in
getting into and out of the Guard, yet he himself secured early release from
both Vietnam duty and an early release from his own active duty committment.
Sounds like a pretty proficient fence sitter to me...

Brooks


Peter Skelton

Lo, many moons past, on Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:46:07 -0600, a stranger
called by some Stop SPAM came forth and told
this tale in us.military.army

He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut
off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for
fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of
South Vietnam."

They did. Vietnam was a brutal conflict, and near the end American
command and control began breaking down. Soldiers did do all these
tuhings, feeling abandoned by their nation and service.

It was a horrible time.

--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail

WE *ARE* UMA
Lemmings 404 Local

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:08:30 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Peter Skelton" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:30:49 -0600, Stop SPAM
wrote:

loki wrote:
Were you even alive in those days?

Yes I was, and in fact I well remember Kerry's "Winter Soldier"
testimony.

Here is the deal. It will never be settled. It wasn't settled back
then
and it won't be settled now. For the next several elections, the
candidates
will all have been on the wrong side of the argument according to some
folks.

I'm not interested in whether or not it is "being settled." You're right
- the Vietnam conflict never will "be settled". The issue, to me, is not
"settling" Vietnam.

I can respect someone who is totally anti-war. They have their opinion,
I have mine, and we live in a land where the First Amendment gives us
both the right to have and publically state that opinion...

But I abhore someone who tries to fence sit and take conflicting stands
on an issue, any issue, much less one as important as the military.
Kerry, IMHO, is trying to be on both sides of the issue.

You have a problem with people who do their duty even if they
don't like it?

I believe his gist was that Kerry demonstrates a remarkable propensity for
trying to have his cake and eat it too when it comes to things military
related. He wants to be considered a Vietnam war hero, yet he condemned the
US soldiers, airmen, and sailors who fought there as being war criminals; he
wants to claim his undying dedication to all things military, yet his voting
record in regards to military programs says otherwise; he wants to display
his medals for his own benefit, after making a big show of tossing them in
protest; he wants to condemn Bush for allegedly not serving his entire
reserve committment, while he mysteriously never seemed to even *have* one
himself; and he wants to pillory Bush for alleged special treatment in
getting into and out of the Guard, yet he himself secured early release from
both Vietnam duty and an early release from his own active duty committment.
Sounds like a pretty proficient fence sitter to me...


I think you mean fence-hopper, a fence sitter is one who takes no
stands but I see your point. Unfortunately, Bush is easily tarred
with the same brush.

Perhaps what's really needed is a statute of limitations -
nothing more than a decade old counts.

Peter Skelton

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...
Lo, many moons past, on Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:46:07 -0600, a stranger
called by some Stop SPAM came forth and told
this tale in us.military.army

He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut
off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for
fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of
South Vietnam."

They did. Vietnam was a brutal conflict, and near the end American
command and control began breaking down. Soldiers did do all these
tuhings, feeling abandoned by their nation and service.

It was a horrible time.

Just what the hell do you know about it? It was painted as horrible by the
News Media that kept getting in the road along with wimpy Politicians that
played to the Media. Neither was the reality yet that is what you saw and
even today, the media will still report it the same way. By 1973, South
Vietnam WAS a better place and self governed. There was very little fightin
going on after that until 1975 when the North Invaded. Up until 1975, the
North had problems even raising and equipping a small army. The Tet
offensive (all parts of it) and the 1972 attacks into Loas and Cambodia by
the US, Thailand, South Korea, Australia and a host of others removed their
ability to wage any type of war. It was the Politicos and the media that
lost it, not the troops. The Troops won it only to have it handed to the
North on a Silver Platter.

You keep reading your slanted crap but others of us will report what really
went on.

Kerry is a politico and not a Warrior and anything he had to do with the
organization that Jane Fonda was in would have been considered treasonise
under WWII, Korea or WWI and back and would have been punishable by up to
death. We sure have come a long way when a Traitor gets to run for
president. Harry S. where are you when we need you.

I just went online with my local (university) library. Guess what
happens when I try to sign it out?

AVAILABLE
This item cannot be requested. Please see a librarian.

Never saw that response before! I'll drive uptown tomorrow and have a
look.

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:46:07 -0600, Stop SPAM
wrote:

Apparently John Kerry co-authored a book in 1971 called "The New
Soldier." There seems to be varying differences of opinion about how
much of it he actually wrote (other than his US Senate testimony during
the "Winter Soldier" hearings), but his name is certainly prominently
displayed on the cover (see
http://www.newsmax.com/images/headli...NewSoldier.jpg or
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...newsol_cov.jpg).

Copies are apparently going for several hundreds of dollars on eBay;
talk of a cover-up and the liberal Democrats trying to destroy all
copies seem far-fetched (try finding copies of any obscure book from
1971), although there are rumours that both copies are currently
'unavailable' at the Library of Congress.

Has anyone with military service actually read "The New Soldier" and can
comment on it contents?



His "Winter Soldier" testimony apparently quoted in the book is
certainly still controversial:

"Much of Kerry's speech before Congress painted his fellow GIs as so
brutal that, today, they could easily be mistaken for Saddam Hussein's
Fedayeen killers.

He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut
off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for
fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of
South Vietnam."

There's a NGO link quoting some of Kerry's testimony at:
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjoh...er_sfrc_71.htm.

There are also discussions of the accuracy of the testimony, such as:
"After Senator Mark O. Hatfield read the Winter Soldier testimony into
the Congressional Record, he asked for an official investigation. When
the Naval Investigate Service did just that, many of the veterans
refused to cooperate (despite protections against self-incrimination).
One soldier admitted that his testimony had been coached by members of
the Nation of Islam; exact details of the atrocity he'd seen now escaped
his memory. Several veterans hunted down by Naval investigators swore
they had never been to Detroit and couldn't imagine who would have used
their identities. (Somehow this episode was left out of the "Winter
Soldier" chapter of Brinkley's book, but the details can be found in
Guenter Lewy's "America in Vietnam" and in Mackubin Thomas Owens's
account in the latest National Review.)"
-
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...ljiby.asp?pg=2


Lots of conflicting stories, such as:
- http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/k/kerry.htm
- http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/...0402130943.asp
- http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...0/131219.shtml


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:19:47 GMT, Douglas Berry
wrote:

Lo, many moons past, on Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:46:07 -0600, a stranger
called by some Stop SPAM came forth and told
this tale in us.military.army

He reported to Congress that U.S. soldiers had "personally raped, cut
off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for
fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of
South Vietnam."

They did. Vietnam was a brutal conflict, and near the end American
command and control began breaking down. Soldiers did do all these
tuhings, feeling abandoned by their nation and service.

I disagree. I will admit that there were _incidents_ where these acts
occurred. However, Kerry tried to make it look like all the US
soldiers were behaving like this.


No electrons were harmed in the posting of this message.

In article ,
emoveunderscore says...

I disagree. I will admit that there were _incidents_ where these acts
occurred. However, Kerry tried to make it look like all the US
soldiers were behaving like this.

Ah... the classic "Just a few bad apples" defence....

Cheers,
dba