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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
Today I was shooting approaches at MHR. Wx was 001OVC 1/8SM. When I
got handed off to tower they would say "Mooney 1234, not in site, landing own risk, landing runway 22L". That doesn't sound like a landing clearance to me. What does "landing runway 22L" mean in the tower ATC phrase book? Why would he tell me that landing was own risk if he wasn't going to clear me to land? BTW: It always struck me as odd that a Mooney and a 747 have the same vis requirements on an ILS. A 1/2 mile is probably like 2 seconds in a 747 but an 1/8 mile is like 10 seconds in a Mooney. Of all my 6 approaches today I easily could have landed from any one of them. I was able to follow the rabbit to the runway but technically if I can only see 1/8 or so I can't land. -Robert |
#2
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
On Jan 15, 12:45*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
Today I was shooting approaches at MHR. Wx was 001OVC 1/8SM. When I got handed off to tower they would say "Mooney 1234, not in site, landing own risk, landing runway 22L". That doesn't sound like a landing clearance to me. What does "landing runway 22L" mean in the tower ATC phrase book? I looked in my FAR/AIM 2007 Pilot/Controller glossary and found nothing. I could only hazaar guesses as an uninformed VFR only wimp. I'm curious about the answer though! ON a (barely) related aside regarding my ignorance of IFR terminology: I checked out in a 172 on Sunday, and while doing some landings at a non-towered local airport that had some published IFR approaches I'd hear planes calling their positions using IFR terminology. I had NO CLUE where the planes actually were in relation to the airport. I didn't know if they were two minutes out or ten. A bit disconcerting when you want to take the active and fly the pattern. If wishes were horses this beggar would ask that IFR pilots report their positions (during VFR conditions) in a way us poor VFR only morons could understand. Might be safer for all ... maybe might maybe ... |
#3
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
Robert M. Gary wrote:
Today I was shooting approaches at MHR. Wx was 001OVC 1/8SM. When I got handed off to tower they would say "Mooney 1234, not in site, landing own risk, landing runway 22L". That doesn't sound like a landing clearance to me. What does "landing runway 22L" mean in the tower ATC phrase book? Why would he tell me that landing was own risk if he wasn't going to clear me to land? BTW: It always struck me as odd that a Mooney and a 747 have the same vis requirements on an ILS. A 1/2 mile is probably like 2 seconds in a 747 but an 1/8 mile is like 10 seconds in a Mooney. Of all my 6 approaches today I easily could have landed from any one of them. I was able to follow the rabbit to the runway but technically if I can only see 1/8 or so I can't land. -Robert What are the vis minimums for that approach? Probably than 1/8 SM. I'm sure you got cleared for the approach but perhaps since the vis minimums were below that published for the approach tower didn't issue you a clearance. That's my guess. |
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
On Jan 15, 11:02*am, wrote:
I had NO CLUE where the planes actually were in relation to the airport. I didn't know if they were two minutes out or ten. A bit disconcerting when you want to take the active and fly the pattern. If wishes were horses this beggar would ask that IFR pilots report their positions (during VFR conditions) in a way us poor VFR only morons could understand. Yea, we teach (or are suppose to teach) IFR pilots not to do that. Its not very helpful for the intended purpose (to let everyone know where you are). -Robert, CFII |
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
Robert M. Gary wrote:
Yea, we teach (or are suppose to teach) IFR pilots not to do that. Its not very helpful for the intended purpose (to let everyone know where you are). -Robert, CFII Flight instructors should at least tell their students about what IFR fixes are and where they are (at that airport). Its not rocket science and it will help the student in the long run. |
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
On Jan 15, 11:15*am, kontiki wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote: Yea, we teach (or are suppose to teach) IFR pilots not to do that. Its not very helpful for the intended purpose (to let everyone know where you are). -Robert, CFII Flight instructors should at least tell their students about what IFR fixes are and where they are (at that airport). Its not rocket science and it will help the student in the long run. That would require students to purchase IFR charts for every airport they visit. They would not only need approach charts but enroutes as well. Its much simplier to just tell the IFR pilots that they need to use VFR friendly phrasing. Instead of saying "I'm at FOOBAR" they could just say "I'm 5 miles out on the the ILS straight in runway 12". Its not very hard. -Robert, CFII |
#8
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
Flight instructors should at least tell their students about what IFR fixes are and where they are (at that airport). Its not rocket science and it will help the student in the long run. That would require students to purchase IFR charts for every airport they visit. They would not only need approach charts but enroutes as well. Its much simplier to just tell the IFR pilots that they need to use VFR friendly phrasing. Instead of saying "I'm at FOOBAR" they could just say "I'm 5 miles out on the the ILS straight in runway 12". Its not very hard. -Robert, CFII I can't see much sense in demanding that VFR pilots learn about IFR and buy or download the approach plates so they can understand a radio message from an IFR flight doing practice in VFR conditions (or when conditions are VFR at the relevant airport). Since there is no requirement to use the radio at class E fields, though, then there's really nothing to be said if an IFR pilot just doesn't want to be bothered. This will probably never be such a big problem (ie, an accident or two or three) that the FAA has to write a regulation on it. If they do regulate, I'd bet money on the rule requiring IFR pilots to announce position rather than the FAA requiring IFR knowledge from VFR pilots. However annoying to the IFR pilot it might be. |
#9
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message ... Today I was shooting approaches at MHR. Wx was 001OVC 1/8SM. When I got handed off to tower they would say "Mooney 1234, not in site, landing own risk, landing runway 22L". That doesn't sound like a landing clearance to me. What does "landing runway 22L" mean in the tower ATC phrase book? Why would he tell me that landing was own risk if he wasn't going to clear me to land? He erred. The proper phraseology is "not in sight, runway 22L cleared to land." "Own risk" is used when a pilot insists on landing on a closed runway, "unable to issue landing clearance, landing will be at your own risk." |
#10
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
On Jan 15, 11:30*am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote: He erred. *The proper phraseology is "not in sight, runway 22L cleared to land." *"Own risk" is used when a pilot insists on landing on a closed runway, "unable to issue landing clearance, landing will be at your own risk." That's what I thought but he said it 6 times. Must be training week in Sacramento. Sunday night I flew into SAC and was told "Cleared to land runway 22". I assume they hadn't built a new runway over night. -Robert |
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