Safety of winch launch vrs. aero tow?

Mark,

I don't think the winch op can't leave anybody out to dry except maybe
himself. If the glider pilot doesn't like what's happening, pull
release, pull spoilers, land straight ahead.

BJ

Mark Navarre wrote:

Errors on the part of the winch driver may leave the glider pilot completely
"hung out to dry" with no risk whatsoever to the winch driver. During aerotow,
the tug pilot is not likely to make mistakes that might kill himself. The
incentive for a safe tow is thus higher for aerotow, because the tow pilot has
built-in accountability. I have driven the winch, and launched my glider by
tug, winch, and auto-tow. I prefer airtow over the other methods, but all can
be safe with proper training and pre-launch briefing.
-
Mark Navarre
ASW-20 OD
California, USA
-

and then you'll be nearer the winch operator for a little face to face
coordination..

BT

"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
...
Mark,

I don't think the winch op can't leave anybody out to dry except maybe
himself. If the glider pilot doesn't like what's happening, pull
release, pull spoilers, land straight ahead.

BJ

Mark Navarre wrote:

Errors on the part of the winch driver may leave the glider pilot
completely
"hung out to dry" with no risk whatsoever to the winch driver. During
aerotow,
the tug pilot is not likely to make mistakes that might kill himself.
The
incentive for a safe tow is thus higher for aerotow, because the tow
pilot has
built-in accountability. I have driven the winch, and launched my
glider by
tug, winch, and auto-tow. I prefer airtow over the other methods, but
all can
be safe with proper training and pre-launch briefing.
-
Mark Navarre
ASW-20 OD
California, USA
-

No man, you need to do one and then you'll understand what I'm saying.

BJ


BTIZ wrote:

and then you'll be nearer the winch operator for a little face to face
coordination..

BT

"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
...
Mark,

I don't think the winch op can't leave anybody out to dry except maybe
himself. If the glider pilot doesn't like what's happening, pull
release, pull spoilers, land straight ahead.

BJ

Mark Navarre wrote:

Errors on the part of the winch driver may leave the glider pilot
completely
"hung out to dry" with no risk whatsoever to the winch driver. During
aerotow,
the tug pilot is not likely to make mistakes that might kill himself.
The
incentive for a safe tow is thus higher for aerotow, because the tow
pilot has
built-in accountability. I have driven the winch, and launched my
glider by
tug, winch, and auto-tow. I prefer airtow over the other methods, but
all can
be safe with proper training and pre-launch briefing.
-
Mark Navarre
ASW-20 OD
California, USA
-

"Gary Boggs" wrote in message
...
Someone must have already compared the safety of these tow launch methods.
What do the statistics show is the safer method of launch? Aero tow seems
to involve more inherent dangers to me. For one thing, there is just more
time for things to go wrong. What could be more dangerous than to tie tow
airplanes together and try to fly?

Gary Boggs



I have done a whole lot of both and, given a choice, I'll take winch launch.

Yes, things happen fast on a winch launch but then the launch is over in
30-40 seconds so the risk exposure is short - with air tow, you are at risk
a least ten times as long. Air tow in turbulent air is fatiguing - you will
never get tired in a 35 second winch launch.

If you don't like the way a winch launch is going, release and land. You
can do that with a winch launch because you should always be in a position
to land back on the runway - I can't say that is always true with air tow.

Air tow is formation flying - involving two extremely mis-matched aircraft -
with a rope tying them together. This requires highly developed flying
skills to do safely. We teach this to pre-solo students. (I wonder how we
get away with it.) Winch launch can easily be taught to pre-solo pilots
since it is a simple, repetitive task.

Air tow has two aircraft at risk and at least two pilots - winch launch has
only one aircraft at risk.

Winch launch accelerates the glider far faster than air tow so dropping a
wing due to insufficient aileron control is unlikely. (Of course, you can
still drop a wing due to incompetence with unhappy results.)

In both cases, the training of the pilots and launch crews have a lot to due
with overall safety. There is ample opportunity for either to come to a bad
end. With equally good training, I think winch launch is safer.

But, lets face it - winch launch LOOKS scary to a pilot trained that a steep
nose-up attitude near the ground is dangerous. It isn't dangerous but it
sure looks that way.

Bill Daniels

I like all these points and I suspect that because of the short time
required in a winch launch, and the faster acceleration, and the fact that
you are in a position to land on the runway that you are using at all times,
the winch launch would be safer, but I still see no statistics! Come on
folks, someone surly has crunched the numbers. Training is crucial in both,
but what I'm looking for is numbers, I have plenty of opinions myself.

Boggs


"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
k.net...

"Gary Boggs" wrote in message
...
Someone must have already compared the safety of these tow launch methods.
What do the statistics show is the safer method of launch? Aero tow seems
to involve more inherent dangers to me. For one thing, there is just more
time for things to go wrong. What could be more dangerous than to tie tow
airplanes together and try to fly?

Gary Boggs



I have done a whole lot of both and, given a choice, I'll take winch launch.

Yes, things happen fast on a winch launch but then the launch is over in
30-40 seconds so the risk exposure is short - with air tow, you are at risk
a least ten times as long. Air tow in turbulent air is fatiguing - you will
never get tired in a 35 second winch launch.

If you don't like the way a winch launch is going, release and land. You
can do that with a winch launch because you should always be in a position
to land back on the runway - I can't say that is always true with air tow.

Air tow is formation flying - involving two extremely mis-matched aircraft -
with a rope tying them together. This requires highly developed flying
skills to do safely. We teach this to pre-solo students. (I wonder how we
get away with it.) Winch launch can easily be taught to pre-solo pilots
since it is a simple, repetitive task.

Air tow has two aircraft at risk and at least two pilots - winch launch has
only one aircraft at risk.

Winch launch accelerates the glider far faster than air tow so dropping a
wing due to insufficient aileron control is unlikely. (Of course, you can
still drop a wing due to incompetence with unhappy results.)

In both cases, the training of the pilots and launch crews have a lot to due
with overall safety. There is ample opportunity for either to come to a bad
end. With equally good training, I think winch launch is safer.

But, lets face it - winch launch LOOKS scary to a pilot trained that a steep
nose-up attitude near the ground is dangerous. It isn't dangerous but it
sure looks that way.

Bill Daniels

"Gary Boggs" wrote in message
...
I like all these points and I suspect that because of the short time
required in a winch launch, and the faster acceleration, and the fact that
you are in a position to land on the runway that you are using at all
times,
the winch launch would be safer, but I still see no statistics! Come on
folks, someone surly has crunched the numbers. Training is crucial in
both,
but what I'm looking for is numbers, I have plenty of opinions myself.

Boggs

OK, the BGA accident database is available on the web. The database is
searchable for flights that began with a winch launch. Note, however, that
most of the accidents in this section do not relate directly to winch
launch.
I think that there were only three or four accidents over a ten year period
that actually happened during the winch launch. The rest were accidents
that happened later in a flight that began with a winch launch.

It seems to me that if winch launch accident data is hard to come by, that
in itself is good news. If accidents happened frequently, there would be
lots of hard data.

Bill Daniels

A good place for statistics is:

http://www.esgc.co.uk/BGAdata.htm

Search and study the reports. There is much written between the lines. If
you look at the number of accidents where the launch was originally a winch
launch you will find that a lot of accidents occur soon after the launch is
completed and are attributed to other factors but which would really not
have happened if they had aerotowed. (Rigging errors not found in the speed
of the launch, not watching airspeed and spinning after the launch because
of distraction with the high workload of the winch and not dealing with the
angle of attack in the launch properly and so on). It is not possible to
give clear cut statistics without a significant degree of human
interpretation and you will really need to make your own mind up. I am
certain winching is a lot more dangerous. There are more things that can go
wrong and if they can go wrong, they will given time.


"Gary Boggs" wrote in message
...
I like all these points and I suspect that because of the short time
required in a winch launch, and the faster acceleration, and the fact that
you are in a position to land on the runway that you are using at all
times,
the winch launch would be safer, but I still see no statistics! Come on
folks, someone surly has crunched the numbers. Training is crucial in
both,
but what I'm looking for is numbers, I have plenty of opinions myself.

Boggs

"John Mason" wrote in message
...
A good place for statistics is:

http://www.esgc.co.uk/BGAdata.htm

Search and study the reports. There is much written between the lines.
If
you look at the number of accidents where the launch was originally a
winch
launch you will find that a lot of accidents occur soon after the launch
is
completed and are attributed to other factors but which would really not
have happened if they had aerotowed. (Rigging errors not found in the
speed
of the launch, not watching airspeed and spinning after the launch because
of distraction with the high workload of the winch and not dealing with
the
angle of attack in the launch properly and so on). It is not possible to
give clear cut statistics without a significant degree of human
interpretation and you will really need to make your own mind up. I am
certain winching is a lot more dangerous. There are more things that can
go
wrong and if they can go wrong, they will given time.


John, the only way to see the data in the way you suggest is with a
prejudiced eye. If a pilot can't fly a glider under stress or rig it
properly, he's just an accident looking for a place to happen. It doesn't
matter how the glider is launched.

Bill Daniels

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:16:58 +0000 (UTC), "John Mason"
wrote:

....snippage...

(Rigging errors not found in the speed
of the launch, not watching airspeed and spinning after the launch because
of distraction with the high workload of the winch and not dealing with the
angle of attack in the launch properly and so on).


....snippage...

None of these points are unique to winching.

- I've seen many more comments on r.a.s about failed aero tows
due to rigging errors than I've heard about for winching. To me this
says more about the safety culture (or lack of it) at different
sites than anything to do with the launch method.
- incorrect airspeed and stall/spin after release is just as possible
at the end of an aero tow if you overcook the climbing turn.
- AOA mis-management will be *much* more serious during an aero tow
on a CG hook than during a winch launch provided the appropriate
weak link is used. Think tug upset.

I launch both ways though I'll admit to many more winch than aero-tow
starts. I see very little difference in pilot stress levels or
workload between the launch methods in good conditions, but the
overall stress from an aero tow is larger, simply because you're on
tow for 5 minutes or more compared with the 30 seconds to get to the
top of the cable. If I'm flying something as sluggish in roll as a
G.103A in turbulent, windy conditions then winching has a much lower
work load than aero-tow.

This is my opinion entirely: I'm not speaking for anybody else or
trying to put words in their mouth.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Hei,

John Mason wrote:

(Rigging errors not found in the speed of the launch,

Whit??

Do forgive my clearly insufficient knowledge of the English
language, but what exactly does "rigging errors not found in the speed
of the launch" mean? And how would those have been found and corrected
if the launch subsequent to rigging had been by areotow rather than by
winch?

I mean: The fact that an aerotow takes longer time to complete does not
give you any more time _prior_ to launch, does it?

Christian 8-)