Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

....And old pilots who used to be bold but toned it down a bit.

On 10/17/2015 1:39 PM, Werner Schmidt wrote:
wrote on 2015/10/2015 at 23:42:

I release from aero-tow at 1,000' if I can but mostly hang on to
1,500.

that's about what our winch can give, as I said, depending on wind,
glider type, skill of pilot, and winch driver.

If I go higher the towpilot asks me what's wrong today.
[...]
Instructors use me as the 'bad example'.

:-)

Of course I modify in high winds and on days with broken-up thermals.

There are bold pilots and there are old pilots ...

Regards
Werner

--
Dan, 5J

Dan Marotta wrote on 2015/10/18 at 00:37:

...And old pilots who used to be bold but toned it down a bit.

well said, Dan. But perhaps should be added, than: "... and happily
survived when bold" :-)

Regards
Werner

:-D

On 10/17/2015 10:26 PM, Werner Schmidt wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 2015/10/18 at 00:37:

...And old pilots who used to be bold but toned it down a bit.

well said, Dan. But perhaps should be added, than: "... and happily
survived when bold" :-)

Regards
Werner

--
Dan, 5J

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 3:50:43 PM UTC-5, Werner Schmidt wrote:

Ah, and now, how did it work out?

Regards
Werner


So possible long term interest. 4 of us are planning on a winch training session next May; that might start something.

And yes, avgas is pretty cheap in the US - our club charges $24 for a 3000ft tow - so we are spoiled.

To fully use a winch, we would have to make some infrastructure changes - theoretically we could have up to 4000ft available launching to the North, perhaps 2700ft to the South. That, plus the economics of a modern winch, might be what it takes to get our club into winching.

So, a work in progress....

Cheers,

Kirk

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:55:28 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same" pattern when something totally different is called for.

And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next to the runway was a completely viable option.

Boggs

Interesting, I just had this discussion with one of the old-time CFIGs in our club (flies an ASW-19 but not XC), and he is strongly opposed to experienced pilots maneuvering on the field after landing; says it sets a bad example for the students (who are taught to roll out straight). Needless to say, I strongly disagreed with him, pointing out that the ability to land out of any pattern, and roll out exactly where you want/need to go, is an important skill that needs to be taught, even if the PTS doesn't require it!

Then again, he isn't much impressed by my low approaches and circling patterns to a landing, either...

Kirk
66

On 10/19/2015 8:45 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:55:28 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of
only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many
landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same"
pattern when something totally different is called for.

And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've
never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in
an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders
taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next
to the runway was a completely viable option.

Boggs

Interesting, I just had this discussion with one of the old-time CFIGs in
our club (flies an ASW-19 but not XC), and he is strongly opposed to
experienced pilots maneuvering on the field after landing; says it sets a
bad example for the students (who are taught to roll out straight).
Needless to say, I strongly disagreed with him, pointing out that the
ability to land out of any pattern, and roll out exactly where you
want/need to go, is an important skill that needs to be taught, even if the
PTS doesn't require it!

Then again, he isn't much impressed by my low approaches and circling
patterns to a landing, either...

Kirk 66


Doing my bit to setting a record for thread drift...

I ran into this particular "disconnect" when still obtaining my license; back
then I might've even been sufficiently inexperienced in the ways of human
nature to've bet Real Money it was a passing thing...the "disconnect" I mean.
Yeah, I was that naive!

The "disconnect" to which I refer is that between proponents of training and
flying *ONLY* to practical test standards (PTS) and those who understand the
PTS are but an arbitrary standard that also open a door to a lifetime of
learning about (in this case) soaring. Yeah, for some of the particularly
unfortunate, unlucky or downright deserving, the lifetime may prove pretty
short, but the reality is - given "a normal lifetime" - no one ever continues
flying to only PTS...nor - IMNSHO - should they, particularly if XC (advertent
*or* inadvertent) is in their future.

The reality is every soaring sword is double-edged. Learning how to turn a
rolling-out glider is a useful skill; I've also seen it lead to "convenience
collisions" when used inadvisedly. That's just the way it is. And (as I know)
the Boggs and Kirks of the world understand, not all gliders turn the same way
when rolling out. Duh? Not according to some of those pilots who've had
convenience collisions, I'll bet!

As to the disconnect and its ongoing "weaponizing" in gliderport
conversations-n-criticism, if I take the "Thou shall NOT do anything at your
home gliderport that does not meet PTS," to its logical conclusion, it begs
the question where shall/should Joe Gliderpilot begin to expand his skill set?

This situation seems to me nothing more than yet another superb teaching
opportunity, and to not use it as such lies somewhere between missing an
opportunity, and downright irresponsible.

And before CFIGs jump down my throat, remember the double-edged sword bit. Not
every display of "beyond PTS skills" at the home gliderport is a paragon of
*individual* safety, not to mention group safety...so why not teach it that way?

Bob W.

On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 5:45:23 PM UTC+3, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:55:28 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same" pattern when something totally different is called for.

And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next to the runway was a completely viable option.

Boggs

Interesting, I just had this discussion with one of the old-time CFIGs in our club (flies an ASW-19 but not XC), and he is strongly opposed to experienced pilots maneuvering on the field after landing; says it sets a bad example for the students (who are taught to roll out straight). Needless to say, I strongly disagreed with him, pointing out that the ability to land out of any pattern, and roll out exactly where you want/need to go, is an important skill that needs to be taught, even if the PTS doesn't require it!

Then again, he isn't much impressed by my low approaches and circling patterns to a landing, either...

The cure to that is to officially add teaching how to properly manoeuvre during the landing roll as an item to the post-solo syllabus, just like (simulated) competition finishes.

There are sites our club flies from where you will *not* get permission to fly solo unless you know how to clear the rather narrow strip for the next glider.

On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 11:48:35 AM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 5:45:23 PM UTC+3, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:55:28 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same" pattern when something totally different is called for.

And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next to the runway was a completely viable option.

Boggs

Interesting, I just had this discussion with one of the old-time CFIGs in our club (flies an ASW-19 but not XC), and he is strongly opposed to experienced pilots maneuvering on the field after landing; says it sets a bad example for the students (who are taught to roll out straight). Needless to say, I strongly disagreed with him, pointing out that the ability to land out of any pattern, and roll out exactly where you want/need to go, is an important skill that needs to be taught, even if the PTS doesn't require it!

Then again, he isn't much impressed by my low approaches and circling patterns to a landing, either...

The cure to that is to officially add teaching how to properly manoeuvre during the landing roll as an item to the post-solo syllabus, just like (simulated) competition finishes.

There are sites our club flies from where you will *not* get permission to fly solo unless you know how to clear the rather narrow strip for the next glider.

Ah yes, site checks, the standard at many UK sites and other places. Perhaps the most interesting for me was at the old Lleweni Parc. 75kts on final to land up hill, stopping at the launch point. Alas, on visiting their web site, now gliders and pilots must now keep off the grass, so there is a tarmac runway and landing gliders must roll to the end to clear the runway.

Frank Whiteley

That's way to high... We use 800-1000, and yes the occasional instructor induced rope break at 600.
Of course there is always the instructor "my airplane" until about 500ft just outside the pattern entry, or the instructor distraction until the student cries uncle and wants to get into the pattern. Ahhh. Instructor, we are a little low out here, shouldn't we head in? Great observation, let's get this on the ground. Then the appropriate debrief on the ground,
BillT

kirk.stant wrote on 2015/10/19 at 16:39:

To fully use a winch, we would have to make some infrastructure
changes - theoretically we could have up to 4000ft available
launching to the North, perhaps 2700ft to the South. That, plus the
economics of a modern winch, might be what it takes to get our club
into winching.

So, a work in progress....

good luck!

Regards
Werner