LIppmann reports a 950 meter winch launch with their Dynatec winch line - anything higher?

Andreas Maurer wrote:

With the standard rope length of about 4.000 ft the height advantage
compared to our steel cable (on a slightly stronger winch) is
impossible to judge visually.

We have a 3300ft rope and we get about 50m (170ft) more with an ASK 21.

Stefan

A word of caution, have you ever tried to lift a reel
of 5mm steel wire? All that weight through one fixing/bulkhead.
Might be ok with the new plastic ropes though.

At 02:00 18 December 2004, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:29:41 GMT, 'Bill Daniels'
wrote:

You know, Andreas, I guess it's possible that they
lied and then faked a
video of the launch but I think it's more likely that
they really did what
they said since a lot of independent people are watching
carefully. It
could be that Lippmann gets high launches because they
really know their
stuff.

No need to fake anything, Bill...

I've seen at least a dozen of 3.000ft+ launches of
them, but with
6.500 ft of rope it's pretty easy to get high if the
wind is strong
enough.
Of course with such long ropes the light weight of
the plastic starts
to play a role - the longer the rope, the more advantageous
gets a
light rope.

With the standard rope length of about 4.000 ft the
height advantage
compared to our steel cable (on a slightly stronger
winch) is
impossible to judge visually.


Bye
Andreas

"Don Johnstone" wrote in
message ...
A word of caution, have you ever tried to lift a reel
of 5mm steel wire? All that weight through one fixing/bulkhead.
Might be ok with the new plastic ropes though.


Indeed! 5mm wire weighs 8 - 10 pounds per hundred feet. Plastic rope
weighs about 1 pound per hundred feet.

Bill Daniels

Excellent point and warning Don - pilot doesn't feel the G loads - we didn't
know much better 35 years ago and put a lot of faith in the weak link.
Experts might explain (or not) why this faith is misplaced. We got a sense
of the weight when collecting and loading around 4,000' of piano wire (in
many pieces) onto a truck...

Lou Frank


"Don Johnstone" wrote in
message ...
A word of caution, have you ever tried to lift a reel
of 5mm steel wire? All that weight through one fixing/bulkhead.
Might be ok with the new plastic ropes though.

At 02:00 18 December 2004, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 20:29:41 GMT, 'Bill Daniels'
wrote:

You know, Andreas, I guess it's possible that they
lied and then faked a
video of the launch but I think it's more likely that
they really did what
they said since a lot of independent people are watching
carefully. It
could be that Lippmann gets high launches because they
really know their
stuff.

No need to fake anything, Bill...

I've seen at least a dozen of 3.000ft+ launches of
them, but with
6.500 ft of rope it's pretty easy to get high if the
wind is strong
enough.
Of course with such long ropes the light weight of
the plastic starts
to play a role - the longer the rope, the more advantageous
gets a
light rope.

With the standard rope length of about 4.000 ft the
height advantage
compared to our steel cable (on a slightly stronger
winch) is
impossible to judge visually.


Bye
Andreas

Bill Daniels wrote:
"Don Johnstone" wrote in
message ...

A word of caution, have you ever tried to lift a reel
of 5mm steel wire? All that weight through one fixing/bulkhead.
Might be ok with the new plastic ropes though.



Indeed! 5mm wire weighs 8 - 10 pounds per hundred feet. Plastic rope
weighs about 1 pound per hundred feet.

Bill Daniels


Just to end the year on a high note - I got the last launch of the year at the
club. 15 to 20km/h wind on the nose and 1.8km of wire resulted in a personal
best of 2,300" AGL in a Bergfalke III (1964 vintage rag and tube with wooden
wings) Addition of 10 year old daughter as a badly calibrated back seat
audio-vario was fun too.

If you are interested there is an igc-file from one of those high launches
available at http://www.aec-landau.de/ (click Projekte - Höhenrekord mit
PE-Seil ).



At my club we are also experimenting with the Hoistline, but only have a
little over 900m (3000 ft). The typical release height for gliders like LS8
and Discus is 900-1200 ft using 5mm steel wire, and slightly higher (100 ft
or so) for the Hoistline. Taking the huge difference in weight into account,
I think that the benefit of using hoistline will increase considerably with
the length of the line.



Hoistline is in most respects easier to handle than steel wire, so if it was
not for the price we would not consider using steel any more.



-Henning




"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
news:cXqwd.119$ql2.74@okepread04...
I'd like to find out more about this record -- they claim to be acheiving
about 50% line length release altitude in almost a dead calm 1 m/s (2.5
Kt).

Our 5000 ft (1500 m) Spectra line weighs only 66 lb (30 kg) and we release
at about 1700 ft. (520 m), not all that much better than the steel line we
used to use -- this "Hoistline" must have something going for it besides
light weight!

Bob Johnson


Dynatec Hoistline is the new winds start rope out of plastic.

It is in many areas superior to the conventional wire. Not only in the
point Betriebssicherheit, that
separate increase lets itself also in the start height according to rope
length until 30%.

On this side, you find the current News to the Dynatec
istline. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.

Start with a 2,000 m Hoistline!

Result: would relax 950 ms!

Here a video of the start!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.

Current News:

An interview with the 1st chairperson of the AEC Landau, Mr. Thilo Ott.
The society has used the Hoistline already for almost 3 years
successfully: interview pdf

Hoistline long start with a 2,000 m!

More than 3,000 starts with the first Dynatec Hoitsline in Landau!

New! Now also F-train lines of Hoistline!

German heights record with Dynatec Hoistline!

The AEC Landau reached 8 incredible 900 ms in the winds start with a Ka!
Further records should follow!

Dynatec Hoistline collaborates perfectly with the new electro start winds:

The first tests of the new Dynatec Hoistline on the also new electro winds
of the firm Ulbrich- industry electronics especially positively passed.
They show, functions that just these new winds especially well with the
Dynatec Hoistline. It gives more information
under www.startwinde.de and on the Aero in hall 1 state 109.

Further successful initial use:

A m Saturday (15.03.2003) around 10.40 clock we made the first start in
Rostock Purkshof at the plastic rope. The conditions were not optimal,
easy back wind (1m/s) and only 1250 ms rope length. As an airplane, we
had occupied a Bocian doppelsitzig (full mass). Train height nevertheless
510 ms!! Further 13 starts were made and all with about the same results.
We had a Sollbruchstellen tear (incorrectly stuck) and a Seilrißimitation;
both without
problems. The Seilhändling, is reported has like your it; extremely
easily. The skeptics here in the society are upset for Saturday also. Now
it arrives only on the durability. René Rietz

The well known Eggerwinde successfully with the Dynatec Hoistline tested:

The well known wind manufacturer Egger tested its current wind already
that with new winds start rope Dynatec Hoistline. The attempts passed
according to manufacturer very positively. Also the manufacturer
developed first a special cap device for the Hoistline. This is also
individually
available. Further information under www.eggerwinde.de. D o w n l o a d
s:

Reconstruction instructions for the winds of the AEC-Landau. Teil 1 ,
Teil 2

Test report plastic start rope (ca. 2MB) in that "magazine sail fly",
author Tino



--


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"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:Y2qwd.770486$8_6.538044@attbi_s04...
Lippmann in Germany reports a winch launch to 950 meters (3100').
http://www.lippmann.de/hoistline.htm

Has anyone heard of a higher launch?

Bill Daniels

OK, the new record is 2 minute launch to 1100 meters (3609 feet) AGL with an
average ROC of 17.8 knots. No wind to speak of. It sounds like pilot Elke
Daniel was flying a K8. The starting rope length was 2000 meters (6562
feet). They used a new Egger winch.

As soon as Aero-Club Landau gets some wind down the runway, I bet we hear of
1500 meter launches. I really wish I had a video of this.

Bill Daniels

"Henning K. Nielsen" wrote in message
k...
If you are interested there is an igc-file from one of those high launches
available at http://www.aec-landau.de/ (click Projekte - Höhenrekord mit
PE-Seil ).



At my club we are also experimenting with the Hoistline, but only have a
little over 900m (3000 ft). The typical release height for gliders like
LS8
and Discus is 900-1200 ft using 5mm steel wire, and slightly higher (100
ft
or so) for the Hoistline. Taking the huge difference in weight into
account,
I think that the benefit of using hoistline will increase considerably
with
the length of the line.



Hoistline is in most respects easier to handle than steel wire, so if it
was
not for the price we would not consider using steel any more.



-Henning




"Bob Johnson" wrote in message
news:cXqwd.119$ql2.74@okepread04...
I'd like to find out more about this record -- they claim to be
acheiving
about 50% line length release altitude in almost a dead calm 1 m/s (2.5
Kt).

Our 5000 ft (1500 m) Spectra line weighs only 66 lb (30 kg) and we
release
at about 1700 ft. (520 m), not all that much better than the steel line
we
used to use -- this "Hoistline" must have something going for it besides
light weight!

Bob Johnson


Dynatec Hoistline is the new winds start rope out of plastic.

It is in many areas superior to the conventional wire. Not only in the
point Betriebssicherheit, that
separate increase lets itself also in the start height according to rope
length until 30%.

On this side, you find the current News to the Dynatec

stline. -------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
.

Start with a 2,000 m Hoistline!

Result: would relax 950 ms!

Here a video of the start!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
.

Current News:

An interview with the 1st chairperson of the AEC Landau, Mr. Thilo Ott.
The society has used the Hoistline already for almost 3 years
successfully: interview pdf

Hoistline long start with a 2,000 m!

More than 3,000 starts with the first Dynatec Hoitsline in Landau!

New! Now also F-train lines of Hoistline!

German heights record with Dynatec Hoistline!

The AEC Landau reached 8 incredible 900 ms in the winds start with a Ka!
Further records should follow!

Dynatec Hoistline collaborates perfectly with the new electro start
winds:

The first tests of the new Dynatec Hoistline on the also new electro
winds
of the firm Ulbrich- industry electronics especially positively passed.
They show, functions that just these new winds especially well with the
Dynatec Hoistline. It gives more information
under www.startwinde.de and on the Aero in hall 1 state 109.

Further successful initial use:

A m Saturday (15.03.2003) around 10.40 clock we made the first start in
Rostock Purkshof at the plastic rope. The conditions were not optimal,
easy back wind (1m/s) and only 1250 ms rope length. As an airplane, we
had occupied a Bocian doppelsitzig (full mass). Train height
nevertheless
510 ms!! Further 13 starts were made and all with about the same
results.
We had a Sollbruchstellen tear (incorrectly stuck) and a
Seilrißimitation;
both without
problems. The Seilhändling, is reported has like your it; extremely
easily. The skeptics here in the society are upset for Saturday also.
Now
it arrives only on the durability. René Rietz

The well known Eggerwinde successfully with the Dynatec Hoistline
tested:

The well known wind manufacturer Egger tested its current wind already
that with new winds start rope Dynatec Hoistline. The attempts passed
according to manufacturer very positively. Also the manufacturer
developed first a special cap device for the Hoistline. This is also
individually
available. Further information under www.eggerwinde.de. D o w n l o a
d
s:

Reconstruction instructions for the winds of the AEC-Landau. Teil 1
,
Teil 2

Test report plastic start rope (ca. 2MB) in that "magazine sail fly",
author Tino



--


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"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:Y2qwd.770486$8_6.538044@attbi_s04...
Lippmann in Germany reports a winch launch to 950 meters (3100').
http://www.lippmann.de/hoistline.htm

Has anyone heard of a higher launch?

Bill Daniels

I was interested in the 3600 ft gain on the winch launch flown by Elke
in the Ka8 so I analyzed the igc file.

As it turns out there was a 13 kt headwind during the launch. (This can
be determined by the circling done after the launch). The maximum angle
of climb was never over 40 deg (relative to the air) and his airspeed
was mostly in the high 40 knots but never getting to 50 knots.

The effective horizontal distance of launch through the air was about
7500 feet (taking the headwind into account) so, in still air, you would
have to have a verrrrrry long rope and runway. The length over the
ground was 4500 feet.

By the way I used 3D-Tracer and a spreadsheet to do the analysis. If
anyone wants any of the graphs for that launch, let me know.

Larry Bogan

3D-Tracer -- www.stransim.com

Bill Daniels wrote:
OK, the new record is 2 minute launch to 1100 meters (3609 feet) AGL with an
average ROC of 17.8 knots. No wind to speak of. It sounds like pilot Elke
Daniel was flying a K8. The starting rope length was 2000 meters (6562
feet). They used a new Egger winch.

As soon as Aero-Club Landau gets some wind down the runway, I bet we hear of
1500 meter launches. I really wish I had a video of this.

Bill Daniels

"Henning K. Nielsen" wrote in message
k...

If you are interested there is an igc-file from one of those high launches
available at http://www.aec-landau.de/ (click Projekte - Höhenrekord mit
PE-Seil ).

That's interesting, Larry.

I wonder if it's possible that they are taking advantage of the light weight
plastic cable by flying a lower airspeed than would be possible with steel
cable. That would give them more time to climb and a higher release.

Bill Daniels


"Larry Bogan" wrote in message
...
I was interested in the 3600 ft gain on the winch launch flown by Elke
in the Ka8 so I analyzed the igc file.

As it turns out there was a 13 kt headwind during the launch. (This can
be determined by the circling done after the launch). The maximum angle
of climb was never over 40 deg (relative to the air) and his airspeed
was mostly in the high 40 knots but never getting to 50 knots.

The effective horizontal distance of launch through the air was about
7500 feet (taking the headwind into account) so, in still air, you would
have to have a verrrrrry long rope and runway. The length over the
ground was 4500 feet.

By the way I used 3D-Tracer and a spreadsheet to do the analysis. If
anyone wants any of the graphs for that launch, let me know.

Larry Bogan

3D-Tracer -- www.stransim.com

Bill Daniels wrote:
OK, the new record is 2 minute launch to 1100 meters (3609 feet) AGL
with an
average ROC of 17.8 knots. No wind to speak of. It sounds like pilot
Elke
Daniel was flying a K8. The starting rope length was 2000 meters (6562
feet). They used a new Egger winch.

As soon as Aero-Club Landau gets some wind down the runway, I bet we
hear of
1500 meter launches. I really wish I had a video of this.

Bill Daniels

"Henning K. Nielsen" wrote in message
k...

If you are interested there is an igc-file from one of those high
launches
available at http://www.aec-landau.de/ (click Projekte - Höhenrekord
mit
PE-Seil ).

"Larry Bogan" wrote in message
...
I was interested in the 3600 ft gain on the winch launch flown by Elke
in the Ka8 so I analyzed the igc file.

As it turns out there was a 13 kt headwind during the launch. (This can
be determined by the circling done after the launch). The maximum angle
of climb was never over 40 deg (relative to the air) and his airspeed
was mostly in the high 40 knots but never getting to 50 knots.

The effective horizontal distance of launch through the air was about
7500 feet (taking the headwind into account) so, in still air, you would
have to have a verrrrrry long rope and runway. The length over the
ground was 4500 feet.

By the way I used 3D-Tracer and a spreadsheet to do the analysis. If
anyone wants any of the graphs for that launch, let me know.

Larry Bogan

3D-Tracer -- www.stransim.com

Bill Daniels wrote:
OK, the new record is 2 minute launch to 1100 meters (3609 feet) AGL
with an
average ROC of 17.8 knots. No wind to speak of. It sounds like pilot
Elke
Daniel was flying a K8. The starting rope length was 2000 meters (6562
feet). They used a new Egger winch.

As soon as Aero-Club Landau gets some wind down the runway, I bet we
hear of
1500 meter launches. I really wish I had a video of this.

Bill Daniels

"Henning K. Nielsen" wrote in message
k...

If you are interested there is an igc-file from one of those high
launches
available at http://www.aec-landau.de/ (click Projekte - Höhenrekord
mit
PE-Seil ).

The wind could very easily have been calm at the surface and 13 knots at the
1100 meter release altitude. That would be consistent with both the ground
observer's report and the logger trace.
-Bob