LS-4 vs ASW-20

Hi,
I'd like to hear about the people who were able to compare the
performance of an LS-4 with an ASW-20 in weak, average and/or strong
conditions. Which climbs best? Which glides best? By what kind of
advantage (is one glider really better than the other, or just average?)
Overall, which is the best machine and is it a lot better or just slightly
better?
If one can point me out to some polar curves for both gliders, I'd be
very happy.
Thank you!

AttentionLEcureuil wrote:
Hi,
I'd like to hear about the people who were able to compare the
performance of an LS-4 with an ASW-20 in weak, average and/or strong
conditions. Which climbs best? Which glides best? By what kind of
advantage (is one glider really better than the other, or just average?)
Overall, which is the best machine and is it a lot better or just slightly
better?
If one can point me out to some polar curves for both gliders, I'd be
very happy.
Thank you!

They have some important differences besides their performance, and are
of different FAI classes. These gliders are usually not compared, so it
makes ask what you have in mind for your mission: contests, recreational
flying, badges, or just curious?

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Asbjorn put it well.

You might also have a preference for stiff (LS4) or
floppy (ASW20) wings. I prefer stiff but bought an
ASW20 for the performance per £/$ (still the best around)
and the generally lower prices of the 20's anyway.

If going for a 20 join:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ASW20owners/

for more advice etc.

There are already several comments about types etc.

Regards

Andy Henderson



At 10:00 23 February 2004, Asbjorn Hojmark wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:04:15 -0500, 'AttentionLEcureuil'
wrote:

I'd like to hear about the people who were able
to compare the
performance of an LS-4 with an ASW-20

I don't think it makes all that much sense to compare
them as
they are in different classes.

Which climbs best?

ASW-20.

Which glides best?

ASW-20

By what kind of advantage

The LS-4 is very easy to fly and is currently best
performer in
the Club Class (as defined here in Europe). The serviceability
of
the LS gliders is currently a bit uncertain after DG
took over
(or failed to take over, let's see about that) Rolladen-Schneider

The ASW-20 is a very nice glider for XC, but isn't
really
competitive in any class anymore (except maybe when
handicapped).
It's flapped and requires a bit more of the pilot than
the LS-4.

I love both of them (but for different purposes), and
own a '20
myself.

-A
--
The Usenet Sect -- Resistance is futile. You will assimilate
ò-|

At 10:00 23 February 2004, Asbjorn Hojmark wrote:
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:04:15 -0500, 'AttentionLEcureuil'
wrote:

I'd like to hear about the people who were able
to compare the
performance of an LS-4 with an ASW-20

I don't think it makes all that much sense to compare
them as
they are in different classes.

Which climbs best?

ASW-20.

Which glides best?

ASW-20

By what kind of advantage

The LS-4 is very easy to fly and is currently best
performer in
the Club Class (as defined here in Europe). The serviceability
of
the LS gliders is currently a bit uncertain after DG
took over
(or failed to take over, let's see about that) Rolladen-Schneider

The ASW-20 is a very nice glider for XC, but isn't
really
competitive in any class anymore (except maybe when
handicapped).
It's flapped and requires a bit more of the pilot than
the LS-4.

I love both of them (but for different purposes), and
own a '20
myself.

-A
--
The Usenet Sect -- Resistance is futile. You will assimilate
ò-|

Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
AttentionLEcureuil wrote:
Hi,
I'd like to hear about the people who were able to compare the
performance of an LS-4 with an ASW-20 in weak, average and/or strong
conditions. Which climbs best? Which glides best? By what kind of
advantage (is one glider really better than the other, or just average?)
Overall, which is the best machine and is it a lot better or just slightly
better?
If one can point me out to some polar curves for both gliders, I'd be
very happy.
Thank you!

They have some important differences besides their performance, and are
of different FAI classes. These gliders are usually not compared, so it
makes ask what you have in mind for your mission: contests, recreational
flying, badges, or just curious?

Yeah, I know about the differences and the FAI classes and I guess
that is why it is very difficult to find a comparison on the internet.

I'm interested in pure performance comparison, glider against glider
in about the same conditions. The reason behind is that I'm looking
to buy an ASW-20 and a guy at our club owns an LS-4. I am quite
impressed by the LS-4 capabilities (I used to fly a SZD-41 Jantar
Standard "against" the LS-4 and the LS-4 has a clear advantage in
climb and cruise). I am wondering, pilot's skills aside, how will the
ASW-20 stand-up against the very good LS-4 performance.

So, I'd like to hear from people who have seen or experienced some
cross-country flights with an LS-4 and an ASW-20 flying side by side.
E.g. You own an LS-4 and your friend an ASW-20 and you go
cross-country together every week-end.
Does one clearly out climbs the other?
Does one clearly pulls away in cruise?
Does the "wind turn" for a glider or the other when the conditions
become weaker or stronger (e.g. LS-4 performs better in less than 2kts
and the ASW-20 gets the advantage when it increases to 4kts).

Thanks a lot!

AttentionLEcureuil wrote:
Hi,
I'd like to hear about the people who were able to compare the
performance of an LS-4 with an ASW-20 in weak, average and/or strong
conditions. Which climbs best? Which glides best? By what kind of
advantage (is one glider really better than the other, or just average?)
Overall, which is the best machine and is it a lot better or just slightly
better?
If one can point me out to some polar curves for both gliders, I'd be
very happy.
Thank you!

They are both fine gliders, but tHe USA handicap does list the ASW 20
with about 4% cross-country advantage over the LS4.

The ASW 20 has a steeper, slower landing approach, due to it's flaps,
and a softer ride in turbulent conditions, due to the more flexible
wings. Those are two reasons I chose the 20 when I had one in the 80s.

The ASW 20 B and C are preferable to the first model, as they have
automatic elevator hook up and a disk brake; the C is preferable unless
you really want the higher wing loading of the B model.

I wouldn't chose between the LS4 and the 20 based on performance, as
neither is at the top of it's FAI class anymore. In non-contest flying,
it will be difficult to see any difference. I'd make the choice on the
other qualities; primarily, I think the LS4 is an easier glider to fly,
so would be a better choice for a club or lower time pilot. If the pilot
is "experienced" then that isn't a factor, and he can choose based on
the other features, like the short landing capability, etc.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

On 23 Feb 2004 06:55:20 -0800,
(AttentionLEcureuil) wrote:

I am wondering, pilot's skills aside, how will the
ASW-20 stand-up against the very good LS-4 performance.

Better in any way, but needs significant experience to get the
advantages. The better the weather (= higher speeds), the better the
20 becomes in comparison. In very weak weather (average cruise speed
below 60 kts) the performance advantage of the 20 is negligible.

Does one clearly out climbs the other?
With higher wing loading (much water ballast - the 20 loves high wing
loading), the 20 climbs significantly better than the LS-4. At low
wing loading climb rates are identical.

Does one clearly pulls away in cruise?
Over 60 kts the 20 cruises better. The difference is huge when both
gliders fly with much water at good conditions (cruse speed in the 20
around 90-100 kts). The high speed (90-110 kts) performance of the 20
is extremely good.

Does the "wind turn" for a glider or the other when the conditions
become weaker or stronger (e.g. LS-4 performs better in less than 2kts
and the ASW-20 gets the advantage when it increases to 4kts).

The flaps make the difference....

Don't forget one extremely important thing: The flexible wings of the
20 make the ride incredibly smooth (and sexy). In my opinion the
"thermal feeling" in the 20 is extremely good.

Basic rule: The stronger weather cnditions are the more a flapped
glider is in advantage.



Bye
Andreas