Ouch!!! Wet rates keep going up!

"Dan Luke" wrote

I blame the engineering schools. IMO, a degreed EE ought to have
experience installing electrical gear and making it work before he
graduates, and a new ME ought to have spent a couple of summers working
construction for a mechanical contractor.

And an architect should have to build houses, or something for at least a
year.

I couldn't tell you how many house plans I have built that were physically
impossible to build, as they were drawn, and I'm not talking simple typo's
or dimension mistakes, either.
--
Jim in NC

"Jay Honeck" wrote ...
- with a starting pay of $18 per hour!


With a typical year containing 2080 hours (for the 40 hr per week employee),
that comes out to a little over $37K of yearly income. That may be enough
for a single person, but the expenses of a family quickly makes that seem
like pretty poor pay.

I don't think we'll see too many future pilots coming out of that pay group.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
I think you are right on the money. I am in the education field, and
see this phenomenon first hand. We are promoting an educational system
that does not reward hands-on skills and the joy of creating things.
Elec engineering students graduate without ever having seen a
soldering iron;

Ahem. We used plug-in breadboards and wirewrap in college to wire up
circuits, not soldering irons. As we should have - we were learning
concepts, not necessarily eye-hand skills. In college you are supposed to
experiment with circuits and soldering is an impediment to that goal. And
that was in the physics program at the University of Minnesota. You can't
get a physics degree without taking the required 1 year lab course, 2/3rds
of which was electronics. (The required text was (still is?) Horowitz and
Hill's "The Art of Electronics" which a lot of people consider a classic
text. I know one of the authors used to contribute in the
sci.electronics.design group - not sure if he still does.)

mech engineers graduate never having done any machining.

While having hands-on experience with machining is nice, it isn't necessary
to doing good design work. Especially when a lot of machined items are now
done with CNC the hands-on experience has less relevance. We all live the
same number of years yet the amount of things to learn keeps growing -
something has to give. For example, machining isn't relevant to much of the
design work they'd do with composite materials, so that is yet another
reason why it is no calamity is mech engineers graduate without machining
experience.

In article J7nJi.2965$Pc3.2614@trndny09,
"Mike Isaksen" wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote ...
- with a starting pay of $18 per hour!


With a typical year containing 2080 hours (for the 40 hr per week employee),
that comes out to a little over $37K of yearly income. That may be enough
for a single person, but the expenses of a family quickly makes that seem
like pretty poor pay.

I don't think we'll see too many future pilots coming out of that pay group.

1) That's "starting pay"

2) What's the cost of housing in Iowa City?

3) $18/hr is a lot better than $0!

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 22:03:54 -0500, "Dan Luke"
wrote:

My fault, though, for assuming a graduate of a respected engineering school
would understand basic electrical circuits. I didn't give him the
pre-employment electrical test.

I've noticed that the better candidates often have off-duty interests
related to the job. They're actually excited by the subject.

Examples:

- EE's active in amateur radio or robot wars
- Finish carpenters who build fine furniture or cabinetry at home
- Mechanics who race or restore classic cars, or crew on someone
else's car
- A&P's who actually fly
- Veterinarians who actually have pets
- Music and art teachers who create or perform

- with a starting pay of $18 per hour!

With a typical year containing 2080 hours (for the 40 hr per week employee),
that comes out to a little over $37K of yearly income. That may be enough
for a single person, but the expenses of a family quickly makes that seem
like pretty poor pay.

I don't think we'll see too many future pilots coming out of that pay group.

Dunno where you live, but a husband and wife each earning $37K per
year could quite easily own an airplane in Iowa.

And let's not forget, that company is offering this pay to LINE
WORKERS -- unskilled labor. It's not hard to imagine what a
supervisor in this plant must earn.

My only point was to present an example of how there *are* economic
opportunities for those who are actually willing to work. The
challenge now is finding the workers.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Examples:

- EE's active in amateur radio or robot wars
- Finish carpenters who build fine furniture or cabinetry at home
- Mechanics who race or restore classic cars, or crew on someone
else's car
- A&P's who actually fly
- Veterinarians who actually have pets
- Music and art teachers who create or perform

Great point.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Morgans wrote:
"Dan Luke" wrote


I blame the engineering schools. IMO, a degreed EE ought to have
experience installing electrical gear and making it work before he
graduates, and a new ME ought to have spent a couple of summers working
construction for a mechanical contractor.


And an architect should have to build houses, or something for at least a
year.

I couldn't tell you how many house plans I have built that were physically
impossible to build, as they were drawn, and I'm not talking simple typo's
or dimension mistakes, either.
Yeah, my architect once in a while says something like "builders always
say 'yeah, it's simple to DRAW'". In the "new house" we will have these
GREAT planters on pedestals going up to the front door. Looks like I'll
have to make them on site out of hypertufa because if they were cast
concrete they would probably weigh 700 lbs. :-).

Margy

Jay's absolutely correct about work available for willing workers.

Here in NW Arkansas, Burger King, Wendy's, MickeyD's, etc no longer
advertise their meal specials on their marquees out front of their stores.
Nope, they advertise their 30-day bonuses and starting wages which are well
above minimum. And this is for the segment of society that is either still
in high-school or never finished. Finish high school, get a bit of Juco time
and you're easily looking at $16 to $20 / hour. Got a full 4-year degree in
anything? That should be good for $50K or so. More than a 4-year degree?
You've just entered the single-income world and the spouse can stay home to
raise the children if he or she wishes.

Proven sales ability with large corporate clients? Bring your own truck to
haul your cash home in...

And our cost of living is only slightly above the Dallas metroplex.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas

On Sep 23, 1:55 am, Jim Logajan wrote:
Andrew Sarangan wrote:
I think you are right on the money. I am in the education field, and
see this phenomenon first hand. We are promoting an educational system
that does not reward hands-on skills and the joy of creating things.
Elec engineering students graduate without ever having seen a
soldering iron;

Ahem. We used plug-in breadboards and wirewrap in college to wire up
circuits, not soldering irons. As we should have - we were learning
concepts, not necessarily eye-hand skills. In college you are supposed to
experiment with circuits and soldering is an impediment to that goal. And
that was in the physics program at the University of Minnesota. You can't
get a physics degree without taking the required 1 year lab course, 2/3rds
of which was electronics. (The required text was (still is?) Horowitz and
Hill's "The Art of Electronics" which a lot of people consider a classic
text. I know one of the authors used to contribute in the
sci.electronics.design group - not sure if he still does.)

mech engineers graduate never having done any machining.

While having hands-on experience with machining is nice, it isn't necessary
to doing good design work. Especially when a lot of machined items are now
done with CNC the hands-on experience has less relevance. We all live the
same number of years yet the amount of things to learn keeps growing -
something has to give. For example, machining isn't relevant to much of the
design work they'd do with composite materials, so that is yet another
reason why it is no calamity is mech engineers graduate without machining
experience.

Engineering is a combination of "practice" and "concepts". I have seen
how a lack of hands-on experience can be a big handicap. Many students
turn in designs that are conceptually and mathematically fine, but
impossible to make in real life. That is the result of our
educational system focusing too much on "concepts" and not enough on
"practice". Part of the reason is, the teachers themselves don't have
the practical experience. One could become an engineering professor
without having spent a single day practicing engineering. If you can
demonstrate the concepts on paper, you are good to go. What do you
think they are going to teach their students? But you can't design a
good bicycle if you don't ride a bicycle. You can't design a good
airplane if you don't fly airplanes. All the theory in the world is
not going to help you make a widget if you don't work on widgets. The
Wright brothers built the airplane from their rudimentary bicycle
buiding experience. Their designs were driven by "gut feeling", not by
anaylsis. I don't see how you can develop a gut feeling if you don't
have the hands-on experience. I met a mech PhD student who brought me
a piece of steel block and called it aluminum. He had no "gut feeling"
for how much aluminum weighs compared to steel. It is dificult to
imagine how one could be innovative with such a serious handicap. When
a EE PhD connects the live and neutral wires together, you have to
think that something is seriously wrong. Regarding concepts vs
practice, it has been said that the steam engine did more for
thermodynamics than thermodyanmics did for the steam engine. The same
could be said about aerodynamics and airplanes. There are exceptions.
Einstein did not have much hands-on experience, yet he transformed a
century worth of techology. Wright brothers did not have much
theoretical framework. But most of us are not Einsteins or Wright
brothers. We need a good balance of concepts and practice in order to
make useful things.