If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Tow Signals
Ramy wrote:
There had been yet another fatality recently as a result of misinterpreting the open spoilers signal. True we all passed the written test and know that wiggeling the rudder means check spoilers and rocking the wings means release, yet so many students and experienced pilots alike continiue to confuse this signal and releasing the tow rope instead, often resulting in accidents. No, we did not all pass a written test that had wiggling the rudder meaning "check spoilers". This signal is a fairly recent innovation, and there were several US sites that taught until recent years that wiggling the rudder was a signal for the recommended release point, hence some of the confusion. 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of the rudder signal! There are plenty of places where some tow planes lack functioning radios, including at least one that you visit. 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until the glider is at least 200 feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger. I'd go a bit farther and say that if the tow plane is climbing and not in danger, it would be preferable to make the signal over the airport at above pattern altitude. 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling the rudder or rocking the wings) the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary. In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the signal. I think this is what needs to be taught. No, rocking the wings means release right *now*, not after you look around and consider what is wrong. If you hesitate, in many cases you'll end up with the rope heading your way. I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion... Likewise. Marc |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Tow Signals
Marc Ramsey wrote: 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of the rudder signal! There are plenty of places where some tow planes lack functioning radios, including at least one that you visit. There is absolutly no excuse for this. The tow pilot can use a $200 handheld if the tow plane is not equiped with one. 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until the glider is at least 200 feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger. I'd go a bit farther and say that if the tow plane is climbing and not in danger, it would be preferable to make the signal over the airport at above pattern altitude. Agree. 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling the rudder or rocking the wings) the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary. In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the signal. I think this is what needs to be taught. No, rocking the wings means release right *now*, not after you look around and consider what is wrong. If you hesitate, in many cases you'll end up with the rope heading your way. It takes less then a second to look at the spoiler, but if the situation is so urgent then the tow pilot can release the rope himself, it shouldn't make much difference. But how often an immediate release is required vs open spoilers? I think the later is much more common, and as such, it would be statistcally better to treat it as such. I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion... Likewise. Marc Ramy |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Tow Signals
Ramy wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote: 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of the rudder signal! There are plenty of places where some tow planes lack functioning radios, including at least one that you visit. There is absolutly no excuse for this. The tow pilot can use a $200 handheld if the tow plane is not equiped with one. I suggest you bring this up next time you visit someplace like Williams. I'm sure the response will be rather amusing... |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Tow Signals
Do not expect any tug pilot with a normal life expectancy to use a hand-held
radio whilst anywhere near the ground especially with a reduced climb rate due to deployed glider airbrakes. Ramy, obviously you don't fly powered aircraft or you would know that one hand should be on the stick/control column and the other ensuring the throttle stays full forward until reaching a respectable altitude. If the tug pilot is wearing a head-set and there's PTT on the stick by all means give a radio call but without these it can only be the rudder wiggle. "Ramy" wrote in message oups.com... Marc Ramsey wrote: 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of the rudder signal! There are plenty of places where some tow planes lack functioning radios, including at least one that you visit. There is absolutly no excuse for this. The tow pilot can use a $200 handheld if the tow plane is not equiped with one. 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until the glider is at least 200 feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger. I'd go a bit farther and say that if the tow plane is climbing and not in danger, it would be preferable to make the signal over the airport at above pattern altitude. Agree. 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling the rudder or rocking the wings) the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary. In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the signal. I think this is what needs to be taught. No, rocking the wings means release right *now*, not after you look around and consider what is wrong. If you hesitate, in many cases you'll end up with the rope heading your way. It takes less then a second to look at the spoiler, but if the situation is so urgent then the tow pilot can release the rope himself, it shouldn't make much difference. But how often an immediate release is required vs open spoilers? I think the later is much more common, and as such, it would be statistcally better to treat it as such. I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion... Likewise. Marc Ramy |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Tow Signals
Ok, Ok, I stand corrected. Still, no excuse for no panel radio in a tug
IMHO. Ramy Phil Jeffery wrote: Do not expect any tug pilot with a normal life expectancy to use a hand-held radio whilst anywhere near the ground especially with a reduced climb rate due to deployed glider airbrakes. Ramy, obviously you don't fly powered aircraft or you would know that one hand should be on the stick/control column and the other ensuring the throttle stays full forward until reaching a respectable altitude. If the tug pilot is wearing a head-set and there's PTT on the stick by all means give a radio call but without these it can only be the rudder wiggle. "Ramy" wrote in message oups.com... Marc Ramsey wrote: 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of the rudder signal! There are plenty of places where some tow planes lack functioning radios, including at least one that you visit. There is absolutly no excuse for this. The tow pilot can use a $200 handheld if the tow plane is not equiped with one. 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until the glider is at least 200 feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger. I'd go a bit farther and say that if the tow plane is climbing and not in danger, it would be preferable to make the signal over the airport at above pattern altitude. Agree. 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling the rudder or rocking the wings) the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary. In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the signal. I think this is what needs to be taught. No, rocking the wings means release right *now*, not after you look around and consider what is wrong. If you hesitate, in many cases you'll end up with the rope heading your way. It takes less then a second to look at the spoiler, but if the situation is so urgent then the tow pilot can release the rope himself, it shouldn't make much difference. But how often an immediate release is required vs open spoilers? I think the later is much more common, and as such, it would be statistcally better to treat it as such. I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion... Likewise. Marc Ramy |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Tow Signals
well gee, dont ya think that maybe the answer to this is to actually
learn the signals? apparently the towpilot took the time to learn the standard signals, the least the pilot could do is return the favor. As a towpilot, if i see airbrakes are out, but we are still climbing, im not going to give the signal until i know you can make it back to the airport. Ive heard too many of these stories. If we arent climbing and are low, you are on your own, goodbye. if we are high but not climbing you get the signal and i hope you figure it out. also, for me, the biggest danger below 200 feet or so is not the throttle slipping back. it is that you didnt hook up your elevator right or something silly like that. I dont feel like getting taken out with you so once the throttle is full, engine gauges checked, everything normal, my hand is near the release ready to let you go. Occasionally i come back to the throttle to double check it is at full, which it always is. As we get higher and i have more time to recover from the upset you cause while programming your geewhizbang palm thingymajob then i go back to the throttle and mixture more, controlling CHTs and all that stuff. Ramy wrote: Ok, Ok, I stand corrected. Still, no excuse for no panel radio in a tug IMHO. Ramy Phil Jeffery wrote: Do not expect any tug pilot with a normal life expectancy to use a hand-held radio whilst anywhere near the ground especially with a reduced climb rate due to deployed glider airbrakes. Ramy, obviously you don't fly powered aircraft or you would know that one hand should be on the stick/control column and the other ensuring the throttle stays full forward until reaching a respectable altitude. If the tug pilot is wearing a head-set and there's PTT on the stick by all means give a radio call but without these it can only be the rudder wiggle. "Ramy" wrote in message oups.com... Marc Ramsey wrote: 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of the rudder signal! There are plenty of places where some tow planes lack functioning radios, including at least one that you visit. There is absolutly no excuse for this. The tow pilot can use a $200 handheld if the tow plane is not equiped with one. 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until the glider is at least 200 feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger. I'd go a bit farther and say that if the tow plane is climbing and not in danger, it would be preferable to make the signal over the airport at above pattern altitude. Agree. 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling the rudder or rocking the wings) the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary. In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the signal. I think this is what needs to be taught. No, rocking the wings means release right *now*, not after you look around and consider what is wrong. If you hesitate, in many cases you'll end up with the rope heading your way. It takes less then a second to look at the spoiler, but if the situation is so urgent then the tow pilot can release the rope himself, it shouldn't make much difference. But how often an immediate release is required vs open spoilers? I think the later is much more common, and as such, it would be statistcally better to treat it as such. I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion... Likewise. Marc Ramy |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Tow Signals
In article .com,
"Ramy" wrote: There had been yet another fatality recently as a result of misinterpreting the open spoilers signal. True we all passed the written test and know that wiggeling the rudder means check spoilers and rocking the wings means release, yet so many students and experienced pilots alike continiue to confuse this signal and releasing the tow rope instead, often resulting in accidents. It is not hard to understand why: The tow plane barely climb, the glider pilot suspects something must be wrong with the tow plane, then he/she sees the rudder signal which confirms his thought that something is wrong, then releases the tow rope in panic, since this is what we were taught to do if something is wrong with the tow plane. I think that there is a relatively simple solution for this: 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of the rudder signal! 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until the glider is at least 200 feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger. 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling the rudder or rocking the wings) the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary. In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the signal. I think this is what needs to be taught. I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion... Ramy It might be that there was a spoiler malfunction. I think there was a crash during a landing at Truckee where the spoilers on a G103 were opened as a test, but then because of wear in the mechanism, they went into a configuration where they couldn't be retracted. There could have been a medical event, or a medical event combined with an equipment malfunction, leaving a student to make a critical decision. As usual, this is just speculation until an investigation is performed. Still, I'm very sad to hear about Joe. He made a better pilot out of me, when I was a student. For one thing, I learned to politely decline if he offered me half of his pickle sandwich, which was his way of rewarding good flying. Talk about spicy!! Ken |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Tow Signals
Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
Checkride! CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers) closed and locked." Left hand in a fist - behind the airbrake handle may alert you that airbrakes are creeping open. The free video from the Soaring SAfety Foundation has a good segment on signals and checklists. Order from www.soaringsafety.org Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of view): Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks airbrakes. IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the towpilot is aware of this. Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked". Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked." If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch. No one gets a tow without a "Marfa Aerotow Briefing". Casual or "know it all" glider pilots are refused a tow unless our procedures are completed. Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way. This cat has used up 8 of my 9 lives over the past 39 years towing gliders. Many glider pilots view the tow as a means to an end- "just get me up there" like a ski lift operator. Do the checklists, follow the procedures, and remember the "joy of soaring"starts after you release! Burt CFIG / DPE Marfa Gliders west Texas www.flygliders.com |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Tow Signals
All good advises from Burt and Tony, but since we are all human, and
human makes human mistakes, wouldn't you all agree that an amendment to the "wing rocking" signal to first check airbrakes and then release could save lives? It can take 5-10 seconds before recognizing that the tow plane is rocking the wings and not just hitting turbulance, which is plenty of time to take a quick look at the spoiler. This will also cover the case where the tow pilot gives the wrong signal by mistake, I'm sure this has happened before. Ramy Burt Compton - Marfa wrote: Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA Checkride! CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers) closed and locked." Left hand in a fist - behind the airbrake handle may alert you that airbrakes are creeping open. The free video from the Soaring SAfety Foundation has a good segment on signals and checklists. Order from www.soaringsafety.org Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of view): Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks airbrakes. IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the towpilot is aware of this. Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked". Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked." If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch. No one gets a tow without a "Marfa Aerotow Briefing". Casual or "know it all" glider pilots are refused a tow unless our procedures are completed. Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way. This cat has used up 8 of my 9 lives over the past 39 years towing gliders. Many glider pilots view the tow as a means to an end- "just get me up there" like a ski lift operator. Do the checklists, follow the procedures, and remember the "joy of soaring"starts after you release! Burt CFIG / DPE Marfa Gliders west Texas www.flygliders.com |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Tow Signals
My sentiments seem to echo Burts because he taught me to tow.
the towpilot rocks the wings cause you need to get off now, not because you need to fiddle with a couple handles, pick your nose, and then get off. you should be happy that your towpilot gives you the courtesy of rocking the wings. If I in the towplane am experiencing an engine problem, first thing is to pull the red handle. Im not sure what kind of turbulence you are flying in, but the thermals we have here will not come anywhere close to mimicking a wing rock. my kind of wing rock is +/- 30 degrees of bank rapidly. Ramy wrote: All good advises from Burt and Tony, but since we are all human, and human makes human mistakes, wouldn't you all agree that an amendment to the "wing rocking" signal to first check airbrakes and then release could save lives? It can take 5-10 seconds before recognizing that the tow plane is rocking the wings and not just hitting turbulance, which is plenty of time to take a quick look at the spoiler. This will also cover the case where the tow pilot gives the wrong signal by mistake, I'm sure this has happened before. Ramy Burt Compton - Marfa wrote: Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA Checkride! CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers) closed and locked." Left hand in a fist - behind the airbrake handle may alert you that airbrakes are creeping open. The free video from the Soaring SAfety Foundation has a good segment on signals and checklists. Order from www.soaringsafety.org Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of view): Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks airbrakes. IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the towpilot is aware of this. Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked". Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked." If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch. No one gets a tow without a "Marfa Aerotow Briefing". Casual or "know it all" glider pilots are refused a tow unless our procedures are completed. Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way. This cat has used up 8 of my 9 lives over the past 39 years towing gliders. Many glider pilots view the tow as a means to an end- "just get me up there" like a ski lift operator. Do the checklists, follow the procedures, and remember the "joy of soaring"starts after you release! Burt CFIG / DPE Marfa Gliders west Texas www.flygliders.com |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
"Signal jamming a factor in future wars, general says" | Mike | Military Aviation | 23 | August 24th 11 02:17 AM |
UAV's and TFR's along the Mexico boarder | John Doe | Piloting | 145 | March 31st 06 06:58 PM |
Glider - Towplane Signals | Mike the Strike | Soaring | 24 | March 26th 05 09:33 PM |
The wrong signals to send to young visitors. | Larry Dighera | Piloting | 57 | November 26th 03 07:05 AM |