A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Naval Aviation
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

F-14 vs. F-15 accel.



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old December 16th 04, 05:46 PM
Ed Rasimus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 16 Dec 2004 14:02:18 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

Tony- how
did it perform a-a against the Eagle in BFM? I've heard some sources say
the Eagle is nigh-invincible in the high speed dogfight (even compared to
the Viper), while other sources (Tomcat drivers) tell me that a -14A is a
good match, while a -14B/D is just cruel to the Eagle driver. Any comments?
BRBR



I say-Since the F-15 had a hard wing, no manuvering devices, high altitude and
high speed, it was very good but if you got it lower and slower, in the 10,000
feet arena and 200 or so kts, you could beat it up pretty good.

The big problem with the F-14 was aft wing sweep at high altitudes, even at
slowish speeds..which made it very piggy.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer


I've had the opportunity to fight (briefly before being morted) an
F-14A in a Phantom--low-level ingress against CV America in the Med.
Watched him run the intercept, commented to the GIB that he was
definitely going to overshoot BIG TIME, then said "aww ****" as the
wings came out and he did the bat-turn.

Also got a number of chances to fly against F-15A models in the AT-38.
No chance at all 1-v-1, but could do a good job against low-experience
Eagle drivers in 2-v-2, particularly with a good Loose Deuce
knowledgeable wingman. 1-v-1, however, it made no difference whether
the setup was dead-6 ahead or dead-6 astern, shoulder to shoulder same
or opposite direction, the Eagle simply rolled into shooting position
effortlessly.

But, that is unresponsive to the question. While running USAF
exercises from USAFE Hq in the early '80s I set up a lot of
USN/USAF/NATO dissimilar air-to-air exercises.

Typically the debrief between F-14A and F-15A showed the Eagles
prevailing WVR (in those days it was guns/Lima/AIM-7F) and the Turkeys
claiming it made no difference because the Eagle was morted pre-merge
with the -54.

The Eagle did very well below 10,000 feet. That big wing and those
virtually stall-free engines made it almost impossible to ham-fist the
airplane out of energy.

But, you throw in the "200 or so knots" and there is no doubt of two
things:

1.) the Tom would do very well in that regime, and
2.) no fighter pilot of the period should ever by flying combat at
that speed!

When I had the chance to ride along in an F-4 off of Forrestal, my
impression was that the Navy guys spent most of the flight orbitting
at "max conserve" to fit into the cycle, then they would run some
1-v-1 proficiency engagements with any fuel left before returning to
the boat. These setups started at low speed and immediately
degenerated into some variant of a low-speed rolling scissors. Those
guys were VERY good in that regime.

I told them when I left that if they ever saw me on an exercise in a
brown/green Phantom, that it would be .9 M or faster and I wouldn't be
turning with them.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
  #12  
Old December 16th 04, 06:00 PM
Tony Volk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

But, that is unresponsive to the question. While running USAF
exercises from USAFE Hq in the early '80s I set up a lot of
USN/USAF/NATO dissimilar air-to-air exercises.
Typically the debrief between F-14A and F-15A showed the Eagles
prevailing WVR (in those days it was guns/Lima/AIM-7F) and the Turkeys
claiming it made no difference because the Eagle was morted pre-merge
with the -54.


I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about
them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear more,
but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most
memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be some
great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle
in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark
getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair,
and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."

Tony

p.s.- I assume that the best is probably coming home alive after doing your
job, but I wanted to open the floor to some shameless and entertaining
bragging


  #13  
Old December 16th 04, 06:54 PM
Red Rider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Tony Volk" wrote in message
...
SNIP----------
I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about
them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear

more,
but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most
memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be

some
great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an

Eagle
in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark
getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair,
and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."

Tony

SNIP-----------

I wish I could remember the name of the guy driving the RA-5C (-10) that
shamelessly whipped a couple of F-4's one day, like he owned them. I can't
even remember all the details but it was something along the line of the
Vigi was at a low weight, optimum altitude, 40,000 feet or so, and he got
the drop on them. Evidently the two F-4's couldn't believe it was happening
to them and instead of splitting and catching the Vigi between them, they
both tried to turn and burn with him. He wore them out and wisely called it
off, about the time, the two F-4 drivers came to their senses and started
working to get the advantage.

One of my most memorable days, was on a routine flight from Key West, was
discovering a pair of Cuban MiG-21 out in front of us. Of course we weren't
allowed to shoot them down. But being out in the middle of nowhere, we
played for a little while and discovered that even though one of the pilots
was damn good, they weren't better than our F-8's. This was before Vietnam
and we still had a lot to learn about the 21. My CO told us on the quiet,
that Intell thought one of the pilots was a Soviet Major, and the other was
a Cuban Major and that both were instructors. That was supposed to be the
only reason they were willing to play tag.

Then there are the days I should forget, like the time I put out all the
lights in Southern California, or getting caught with the Admirals daughter
in the phone booth at the Trader Vics.

NAW, I wouldn't trade those memories for a new puppy for Christmas.

Red


  #14  
Old December 16th 04, 07:06 PM
Ed Rasimus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:00:04 -0500, "Tony Volk"
wrote:

I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about
them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear more,
but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most
memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be some
great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle
in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark
getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair,
and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."

Tony

p.s.- I assume that the best is probably coming home alive after doing your
job, but I wanted to open the floor to some shameless and entertaining
bragging


Well, pshaw. But, since you asked.

Maybe the most fun I ever had in a Talon vs Eagle engagement was a
2-v-2 out of Holloman. My wingman was Capt. Mike Scott (son of Lt Gen
Winfield Scott who was Supt of AFA at that time and previously an
F-105 driver.) Mike had been an F-4 type before coming to AT-38s and
was definitely not a "my dad is so-and-so" kind of guy. He was very
good at the job.

The Eagles were led by the Western US F-15 demo pilot--the hand-picked
whiz-kid to go to airshows and fly the low level demos of the Eagle
everywhere W. of the Mississippi.

At the time, the 49th wing at Holloman had a wing commander who was
much more administrator than fighter pilot. His greatest concern was
that an accident, particularly with his relatively low-experience wing
full of young drivers, would ruin his opportunity to make general. He
mandated that all dissimilar engagements flown by his guys would be
with "continuous mutual support--radar, radio, visual and formation!"
This meant that his guys would be effectively tied to the 1950/60's
era fighting wing tactics that he himself had been trained in. On the
other side of the airdrome, the AT-38 instructor cadre had much higher
average fighter time and no such restrictions.

ROE were visual engagments, 5 thousand foot altitude block separation
until the merge, and rear-aspect weapons. With dual UHF capability,
the Eagles had the advantage of radar, GCI support and monitoring of
the Talon's frequency. The AT-38s had small size.

Setup was 20 mile separation and head-on into the merge. Cleared to
leave the block on visual. I chose to take the block above the Eagles
and rather than a traditional spread, I told Mike to stack as close to
directly above me as possible (4000 feet higher). "Fight's on."

As I expected, the Eagles and GCI picked us up and provided vectors,
but the couldn't discriminate the two aircraft and so couldn't
allocate weapons on the pair. We could see the huge airplanes long
before they saw us and consequently called visual on the pair who
immediately entered a defensive turn, dragging the Eagle wingman into
low-aspect trail. I engaged the trailer for high-angle guns, Mike
offset laterally and maintained his altitude advantage. With a top
planform on the turning wingman, I filmed the gun shot then zoomed off
opposite the defensive turn. Mike dropped to press and stop the
reversal, I continued counter-fight and high-angled the leader on the
opposite side of the circle. Mike got his shot on the wingman and I
called the egress. We split, got 10K feet of separation and knocked it
off.

Second, third, fourth engagements repeated. Finally during the fourth
engagement I lamented on the radio that I was out of film on my second
magazine and wished I'd brought more.

The poor Eagle driver accused us on debrief of "lacking flight
discipline" because we were split-plane throughout and eating their
lunch unfairly. I simply pointed out that we were always in "detached
mutual support" and he might want to check out the latest tactics
manuals.

But, in fairness, had the Eagles been able under the ROE use their
Limas, face-shot WVR with AIM-7Fs and been allowed the same freedom
of maneuver, we would have been very small threat.

Still in all, a great fun day.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
  #15  
Old December 16th 04, 07:53 PM
C.D.Damron
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Red Rider" wrote in message
m...

in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or

'Vaark
getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a

chair,
and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."



I need to get my dad on here. He's got a great story about his Prowler
getting jumped by Tomcat at Red Flag.


  #16  
Old December 16th 04, 08:12 PM
Frijoles
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Tony Volk" wrote in message
...
But, that is unresponsive to the question. While running USAF
exercises from USAFE Hq in the early '80s I set up a lot of
USN/USAF/NATO dissimilar air-to-air exercises.
Typically the debrief between F-14A and F-15A showed the Eagles
prevailing WVR (in those days it was guns/Lima/AIM-7F) and the Turkeys
claiming it made no difference because the Eagle was morted pre-merge
with the -54.


I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about
them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear
more,
but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most
memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be
some
great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an
Eagle
in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark
getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair,
and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."

Tony

p.s.- I assume that the best is probably coming home alive after doing
your
job, but I wanted to open the floor to some shameless and entertaining
bragging



As an occasional adversary, my observation is that B/D (whatever they've
called them over time...) Tomcat is a much different animal than the A, not
just in Ps, but in terms of relatively carefree operation of the jet in BFM
(i.e. much better stall margin in the GE motors). Well flown B/D was
similar or better than Eagle in my experience.

Pressure game was always best in BFM against either jet. Usually led to a
premature vertical move by the fighter, a need to come out of the vertical
earlier than he wanted, and a rapid transition into a rolling fight which
was where the game was now on my terms. However, both have remarkable
agility given their size, and pilot ability/experience remains
the most common determinant of who wins.

IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet.


  #17  
Old December 16th 04, 09:45 PM
John Carrier
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

SNIP

IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet.


Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the
F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. Hard to do,
wasteful of gas and time (to say nothing of what this kind of engagement
looks like to everyone else near the arena), but doable. In a real-world
multi-bogey fight, such a dazzling display would probably result in two
fireballs.

R / John


  #18  
Old December 17th 04, 12:46 AM
Ed Rasimus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:45:01 -0600, "John Carrier"
wrote:

SNIP

IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet.


Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the
F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. Hard to do,
wasteful of gas and time (to say nothing of what this kind of engagement
looks like to everyone else near the arena), but doable. In a real-world
multi-bogey fight, such a dazzling display would probably result in two
fireballs.

R / John

And, with that truism, the prosecution rests.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
  #20  
Old December 17th 04, 07:59 AM
Elmshoot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

There's got to be some
great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle
in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark
getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair,
and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."

Tony



Tony,
There I was in MAWS Medium Attack Warefare school at Whidbey. I think it was
mid 80's They sometimes called MAWS Top Bomb. Cdr Roy Lundean was OIC of the
school. Other than bombing we also talked about AA stuff and considerations for
getting the bad guys to go some place else while you pressed the target to kill
a lot of bad guys. Instead of killing one at a time.
Our graduation flight was:
We had a joint (USAF) attack at Saylor Creek at mountain home AFB the mission
was High altitude transit and rendevous with the Varks over Baker VOR Then to
the entry point of the low level 200 miles of low altitude with the Varks
detaching about 1/2 way around since we didn't go fast enough. Low altitude
delivery on various tgts in the range then off target to Mountain home for a
landing. I was the strike lead of 8 Intuders and I think there were 4 Varks. I
think our load out was constructive Rockeyes and one Aim 9. On the Intruder we
could only do boresight shots with the heater. We actually had a few blue tubes
so I got one hung on my plane as well as some of the other Intruders. Our
tactic during the low altitude was called the goose. I was in the front my wing
man was 1 mile at my 6 the rest were in battle box 1 mile abeam each other on
back. Roy was dash last so he could evaluate and keep an eye on things. We
were opposed by Vipers from Hill AFB. So everything is going great off on the
Low level the Varks take a split We see the vipers way up high and they don't
see us and go after the varks. About that time we are cooking along at about
420 and here comes 2 F-4's across my nose right to left at about 1 mile. I
couldn't believe my luck. (Later we learned they were just some Happy Hooligans
out on a low level that crossed through the MOA) About the time I saw them
they saw me. I called on tactical the interlopers and decided that I would
take a shot at the lead. I had my BN set up the AIM-9 on the ACU, Master Arm ON
The lead started a climbing left turn against a clear blue sky I pulled up got
a tone took a shot then rolled back right and resumed the LL my wingman shot
the F-4 wing man and he resumed. Since they saw us make a move on them they
started to return the favor I'm sure at some point when they looked down and
relazed the armada of Intruders they just started to roll in on us and after
about 3 attacks Roy comes up on guard and tells them to go away they are
already dead.
Mean while the goose makes it to the Tgt good bombs on tgt. They have smoky
sams being shot at us. what fun! We land at Mountain Home and go to the bunker
for the debrief.
So there is my F-4 kill story. Mean while the Vark guys come in all PO'ed
because the viper guys called a shot on them from like 2 miles astearn with 100
knots opening. These Vark guys are screaming in the phone about the BS shot and
the viper guys finally admitt that it wasn't a good shot so they were suppost
to send them some money.
After that we all loaded up and went out to Scrubbys BBQ just off base. Really
good place and we always made it a point to go there for lunch on our stops
through Mountain Home.
Sparky
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.