Bible-beater pilots

Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!), and -- best of
all -- our day off. With the kids in school, and the plane fully fueled, it
was off to...where?

Prairie du Chein, sitting at the confluence of the Mississippi and Wisconsin
Rivers, beckoned, with its beautiful approaches, favorable runways, and a
riverboat casino that would fetch us over to their excellent lunch buffet.
So, we pointed Atlas in that general direction, and puttered our way to
Wisconsin at a paltry 109 knots -- we were bucking a 35 knot headwind all
the way!

Luckily, above 3500 feet it was smooth as a baby's bottom. Calling PDC from
10 minutes out, we asked them to call the casino's courtesy vehicle for us.
To our surprise, they announced that it was "already on the way" --
apparently someone was there ahead of us, and had already made the call.

After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge
bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked
next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney. It was immaculate, and the paint
really set it apart. Upon strolling inside, we discovered two older
gentlemen, one of whom owned the Mooney -- evidently the folks who had
called the casino. The courtesy van was already there, so we hopped in the
back and all rode over together.

The usual introductions were made, and standard pilot talk ensued. It
turned out that the Mooney was a '67 model, and both guys were retired and
in their mid-70s. One had been a Sears store manager for many years, and
the other -- the owner of the Mooney -- was a successful real estate
developer. The conversation flowed smoothly, and the ride went quickly. As
we disembarked from the van, we bid them adieu and went our separate ways.

In the buffet line, we ran into them again. While I was filling my salad
bowl, the old Sears manager asked me if we cared to join them for lunch?
Since we were sans kids, and they were mighty nice company, Mary and I
allowed that joining them was a grand idea, and proceeded to confuse the
wait staff by moving our beverages across the room to their table.

Once we were all seated with our food, the real estate guy announced that it
was their habit to pray before meals, and asked if we might join them. I
frankly found this a bit odd, in a casino buffet, but to be polite we
affirmed the idea and bowed our heads while the Sears guy recited a prayer
about safe flying and good eating. Mary and I exchanged the old "uh-oh"
glance, but we still hoped that things would progress normally.

It was not to be.

As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the
school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into what
church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that
question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but
there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY
church. I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised
hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed
religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their
religion when they reached the age of reason.

This was a mistake. I might as well have tossed blood into shark-infested
waters.

The next question, after a pause, was from the Sears guy, asking whether we
had Gideon bibles in our hotel suites. I chuckled, and allowed that we did.
I then went on to say how we'd even seen some competition amongst the
various religious sects in town, with the Mormons trying to get us to put
their "Book of Mormon" texts in all the suites, too. Still chuckling, I
remarked that we had to draw the line somewhere, or we'd have to put the
Koran and the Hindu texts in the suites, too.

This was another mistake. The Sears guy turned out to be a Gideon, and he
didn't warm to the notion that I was equating his King James Bible with the
Koran.

Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to the
heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a nightmare"
feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them in
disbelief.

Then the Sears guy asked me if I knew how "truly easy" it was to be "saved"?
I replied, quite honestly, "no". (ANOTHER mistake!) He then told me that I
didn't have to close my eyes, nor did I even have to be in church -- I only
had to say the following prayer along with him, giving myself over to Jesus
Christ. He then asked, directly, "Would I be willing to say this little
prayer aloud with him?"

The heat in my face was really rising now, and I felt like everyone in that
casino was staring DIRECTLY at the back of my head. What could I say to
someone so earnest, yet so incredibly rude? I smiled, placed my hand firmly
on his shoulder, and told him that I most certainly was NOT going to pray
with him in a casino. I then went back to eating, trying to think of some
way -- ANY way -- to escape this insane situation.

Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the
bathroom! Abandoned, I was a helpless target for their religious zeal, and
felt myself being carried along by their verbal diarrhea. There was simply
no escape, and I politely listened while they explained to me everything
from everlasting salvation, to the tax advantages of tithing 20% of my
income to the church...

At last Mary returned, and announced that we were late to get back to pick
up the kids from school. Never had I been so grateful for bad news in my
life, and I quickly jumped up, shook both their hands, thanked them for an
"interesting" lunch, and headed toward the door, on the double.

Feeling like I'd just been delivered from the Gates of Hell, we told the
driver (the same guy who had picked us up) about the two bible-beater
pilots. He was as dumb-founded as we were, and apologized profusely, as if
he had just forced us to eat lunch with a couple of sloppy drunks. He
allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an observation
that made us laugh out loud.

We then warned him to keep his mouth shut when he gave them a ride back, or
risk wasting the entire afternoon, which got him chuckling -- until his
radio crackled to life, and the dispatcher announced that he had "Two more
to go back to the airport" when he got back.

His face fell as he knew that deliverance would not be his today... Then it
was *our* turn to laugh!

Our flight home was fast (175 knots, thanks to that tail wind) and
uneventful, but our lunch had been completely ruined, and we could only
shake our heads in wonder at the audacity of these men. The gall and sheer
tastelessness of their behavior had us recounting every detail of the
experience all the way home, as if we had just witnessed a train wreck. We
realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps removed
from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the
only difference being their hair style and their dogma.

Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone smart
enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have a
hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
thing.

Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04...
Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!), and -- best of
all -- our day off. With the kids in school, and the plane fully fueled,
it
was off to...where?

Prairie du Chein, sitting at the confluence of the Mississippi and
Wisconsin
Rivers, beckoned, with its beautiful approaches, favorable runways, and a
riverboat casino that would fetch us over to their excellent lunch buffet.
So, we pointed Atlas in that general direction, and puttered our way to
Wisconsin at a paltry 109 knots -- we were bucking a 35 knot headwind all
the way!

Luckily, above 3500 feet it was smooth as a baby's bottom. Calling PDC
from
10 minutes out, we asked them to call the casino's courtesy vehicle for
us.
To our surprise, they announced that it was "already on the way" --
apparently someone was there ahead of us, and had already made the call.

After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge
bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked
next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney. It was immaculate, and the paint
really set it apart. Upon strolling inside, we discovered two older
gentlemen, one of whom owned the Mooney -- evidently the folks who had
called the casino. The courtesy van was already there, so we hopped in
the
back and all rode over together.

The usual introductions were made, and standard pilot talk ensued. It
turned out that the Mooney was a '67 model, and both guys were retired and
in their mid-70s. One had been a Sears store manager for many years, and
the other -- the owner of the Mooney -- was a successful real estate
developer. The conversation flowed smoothly, and the ride went quickly.
As
we disembarked from the van, we bid them adieu and went our separate ways.

In the buffet line, we ran into them again. While I was filling my salad
bowl, the old Sears manager asked me if we cared to join them for lunch?
Since we were sans kids, and they were mighty nice company, Mary and I
allowed that joining them was a grand idea, and proceeded to confuse the
wait staff by moving our beverages across the room to their table.

Once we were all seated with our food, the real estate guy announced that
it
was their habit to pray before meals, and asked if we might join them. I
frankly found this a bit odd, in a casino buffet, but to be polite we
affirmed the idea and bowed our heads while the Sears guy recited a prayer
about safe flying and good eating. Mary and I exchanged the old "uh-oh"
glance, but we still hoped that things would progress normally.

It was not to be.

As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the
school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into
what
church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that
question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but
there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY
church. I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised
hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed
religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their
religion when they reached the age of reason.

This was a mistake. I might as well have tossed blood into shark-infested
waters.

The next question, after a pause, was from the Sears guy, asking whether
we
had Gideon bibles in our hotel suites. I chuckled, and allowed that we
did.
I then went on to say how we'd even seen some competition amongst the
various religious sects in town, with the Mormons trying to get us to put
their "Book of Mormon" texts in all the suites, too. Still chuckling, I
remarked that we had to draw the line somewhere, or we'd have to put the
Koran and the Hindu texts in the suites, too.

This was another mistake. The Sears guy turned out to be a Gideon, and he
didn't warm to the notion that I was equating his King James Bible with
the
Koran.

Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving"
how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to
the
heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing
incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a
nightmare"
feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or
tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them
in
disbelief.

Then the Sears guy asked me if I knew how "truly easy" it was to be
"saved"?
I replied, quite honestly, "no". (ANOTHER mistake!) He then told me that
I
didn't have to close my eyes, nor did I even have to be in church -- I
only
had to say the following prayer along with him, giving myself over to
Jesus
Christ. He then asked, directly, "Would I be willing to say this little
prayer aloud with him?"

The heat in my face was really rising now, and I felt like everyone in
that
casino was staring DIRECTLY at the back of my head. What could I say to
someone so earnest, yet so incredibly rude? I smiled, placed my hand
firmly
on his shoulder, and told him that I most certainly was NOT going to pray
with him in a casino. I then went back to eating, trying to think of
some
way -- ANY way -- to escape this insane situation.

Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the
bathroom! Abandoned, I was a helpless target for their religious zeal,
and
felt myself being carried along by their verbal diarrhea. There was
simply
no escape, and I politely listened while they explained to me everything
from everlasting salvation, to the tax advantages of tithing 20% of my
income to the church...

At last Mary returned, and announced that we were late to get back to pick
up the kids from school. Never had I been so grateful for bad news in my
life, and I quickly jumped up, shook both their hands, thanked them for an
"interesting" lunch, and headed toward the door, on the double.

Feeling like I'd just been delivered from the Gates of Hell, we told the
driver (the same guy who had picked us up) about the two bible-beater
pilots. He was as dumb-founded as we were, and apologized profusely, as
if
he had just forced us to eat lunch with a couple of sloppy drunks. He
allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an
observation
that made us laugh out loud.

We then warned him to keep his mouth shut when he gave them a ride back,
or
risk wasting the entire afternoon, which got him chuckling -- until his
radio crackled to life, and the dispatcher announced that he had "Two more
to go back to the airport" when he got back.

His face fell as he knew that deliverance would not be his today... Then
it
was *our* turn to laugh!

Our flight home was fast (175 knots, thanks to that tail wind) and
uneventful, but our lunch had been completely ruined, and we could only
shake our heads in wonder at the audacity of these men. The gall and
sheer
tastelessness of their behavior had us recounting every detail of the
experience all the way home, as if we had just witnessed a train wreck.
We
realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps
removed
from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the
only difference being their hair style and their dogma.

Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in
every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone
smart
enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and
rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have
a
hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up,
but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right
thing.

Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


Did ya get their N number? If so I'll paint it on the ramp at PDC with a
warning next time we are there. Wonder what they would have said had you
questioned them about being in a casino?

Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

All you had to do was get up and leave instead of agonizing over the
politeness of how to exit. Nobody forced you to sit there and listen to it.

It's clear you and your family have no moral guidance. I can see how being
raised a Catholic has got you out of tune with God, that's pretty common.
Sure, faith is a personal thing, but we're also commanded to spread the good
news. Tell others. That's what they were doing. You make it sound like
you were trapped because it makes them sound evil and you appear a victim
and we'll feel sorry for you. It's real funny to laugh at the apparent
hypocrites who want to tell you something important while sitting in a
casino. Well they are as imperfect as the rest of us. Who knows - maybe
they go to the casino just to evangelize because they know there are people
there like you who need to hear it. It's the message that's important, not
the person delivering it. Your rejection of the message does not diminish
its truth. Feel free to continue denying God, it is obviously your choice.
It is your unalienable right in this great country to have whatever religion
you want, including none at all. When you're standing at the final
judgement you're going to feel pretty silly remembering how you should have
listened, believed, acted, and provided some leadership to your family in
this most important area of their lives. Are you going to teach your
children about Jesus or let them wander in apathy ? So far, you are lost.
If you think your own inner self, your conscience, your innate sense of
right and wrong should be your guide, if you think its enough just to be a
good person, then you've got it all backwards.

Your prolific newsgroup posting over the last several years now has provided
some interesting insight into your personality. We know what you look like,
where you live, what you like to do, where you like to go, how you earn a
living. Isn't it time you quit worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back
and sought out some real meaning to why you're here ? Some real guidance in
your life ? Pick up the Bible and take another look. That's the real POH.
It's especially hard for smart, successful people like yourself to believe
that they need Jesus because it makes them accept the fact that they are
inadequate and incomplete without Him. Well get used to that concept. From
the janitor to the CEO and from the gambler to the hotel owner, that is
exactly what we all need. The only difference is in how long it takes each
of us to figure it out and make the single most important decision your
entire life. To accept Jesus or reject him. It's just between you and Him,
nobody else. What is it going to be ?

Jay apparently one of them has followed you back here. The bible is the
real POH. I looked but couldn't find the weight and balance section. Give
me a break.

"Ian" wrote in message
...
Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do?

All you had to do was get up and leave instead of agonizing over the
politeness of how to exit. Nobody forced you to sit there and listen to
it.

It's clear you and your family have no moral guidance. I can see how
being
raised a Catholic has got you out of tune with God, that's pretty common.
Sure, faith is a personal thing, but we're also commanded to spread the
good
news. Tell others. That's what they were doing. You make it sound like
you were trapped because it makes them sound evil and you appear a victim
and we'll feel sorry for you. It's real funny to laugh at the apparent
hypocrites who want to tell you something important while sitting in a
casino. Well they are as imperfect as the rest of us. Who knows - maybe
they go to the casino just to evangelize because they know there are
people
there like you who need to hear it. It's the message that's important,
not
the person delivering it. Your rejection of the message does not diminish
its truth. Feel free to continue denying God, it is obviously your
choice.
It is your unalienable right in this great country to have whatever
religion
you want, including none at all. When you're standing at the final
judgement you're going to feel pretty silly remembering how you should
have
listened, believed, acted, and provided some leadership to your family in
this most important area of their lives. Are you going to teach your
children about Jesus or let them wander in apathy ? So far, you are lost.
If you think your own inner self, your conscience, your innate sense of
right and wrong should be your guide, if you think its enough just to be a
good person, then you've got it all backwards.

Your prolific newsgroup posting over the last several years now has
provided
some interesting insight into your personality. We know what you look
like,
where you live, what you like to do, where you like to go, how you earn a
living. Isn't it time you quit worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back
and sought out some real meaning to why you're here ? Some real guidance
in
your life ? Pick up the Bible and take another look. That's the real
POH.
It's especially hard for smart, successful people like yourself to believe
that they need Jesus because it makes them accept the fact that they are
inadequate and incomplete without Him. Well get used to that concept.
From
the janitor to the CEO and from the gambler to the hotel owner, that is
exactly what we all need. The only difference is in how long it takes
each
of us to figure it out and make the single most important decision your
entire life. To accept Jesus or reject him. It's just between you and
Him,
nobody else. What is it going to be ?

("Yossarian" wrote)
real POH. I looked but couldn't find the weight and balance section.
Give
me a break.


Prety level headed volley - well thought out presentation of his point
of view. I liked Ian's post.

"Isn't it time you quit worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back..."
That was almost Marty, Marty, Marty funny. g

Now, whether I agree with Ian, or not, is another matter.

--
Montblack

Montblack wrote:


"Isn't it time you quit worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back..."
That was almost Marty, Marty, Marty funny. g

I think it poor taste in an aviation group to discuss Pathfinder worship.

- Andrew

"Ian" wrote in message


It's clear you and your family have no moral guidance.
...there are people there like you who need to hear it.
...Your rejection of the message does not
diminish its truth. ...So far, you are lost. If
you think your own inner self, your conscience, your innate sense of
right and wrong should be your guide, if you think its enough just to
be a good person, then you've got it all backwards.

Isn't it time you quit
worshipping the Pathfinder parked out back and sought out some real
meaning to why you're here ? Some real guidance in your life ?
...The only difference
is in how long it takes each of us to figure it out and make the
single most important decision your entire life. To accept Jesus or
reject him.

No moral guidance? Needs to hear the message? Truth? Lost? Got it
backwards? Worshiping the plane? Real guidance? Most important decision?


Wow.

Just out of curiosity: What puts you in a position to judge his moral
guidance (or lack thereof)? I suppose you'll say that Christian morality is
the only correct morality, right?

Why does he *need* to hear the message? I suppose you like the idea of
email spam, too. After all, one has only to determine that we *need* to
hear the message to make it acceptable, right?

How do you account for the billions of "souls" who are not Christian yet
seem to live good lives? (By "good" I mean doing things that Christians
claim to do like charity, treating others with respect, living by their
version of the Ten Commandments.)

Tell me again how many people have died in wars based on nothing but
religion?

Christianity isn't the only game in town - and the other leagues have some
pretty solid players, too.

--
Lenny Toulson

Lenny,

Tell me again how many people have died in wars based on nothing but
religion?


That was the case in the vast majority of wars, I would say. Of course,
in most, religion was just a cover for power mongering - but that seems
to be common in religion anyway.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:00:56 +0100, Thomas Borchert
wrote:

That was the case in the vast majority of wars, I would say. Of course,
in most, religion was just a cover for power mongering - but that seems
to be common in religion anyway.

Given that power mongering exists with or without religion (unless the
last 100 years of secular democracies descending into fascist or
communist dictatorships is supposed to be set aside?), it seems
particularly fallacious to suppose that because many religions contain
power mongerers, that it is the cause of the belief system that they
monger power.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:54:32 GMT, "Lenny Toulson"
wrote:

Tell me again how many people have died in wars based on nothing but
religion?

People have died in wars based on nothing but human avarice, with
religion as the dressing to break down a person's natural inclination
not to kill for the first time.

Let's not go and blame religion when other factors, usually condemned
by religious belief systems, are more operative. To do so would be
insignificant cause fallacies. Fights and wars have broken out over
things other than religion, and no society goes to war for that reason
alone. It's too much work!

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card