Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

Bob Moore schrieb:

Just point us at the definition.

Barrel roll
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
....

Wikipedia is not more reliable than you and me talking over a beer. That
said:


"... a 360 degrees roll around the aircraft's zero lift axis, producing
positive g throughout, starting and finishing at the same altitude in
horizontal flight and parallel to the competition axis. For a perfect
result the rate of roll should be constant, although this is not a
universal requirement.

.... a mixture of a roll and a loop ...

The amount of g pulled, the extent (below 90 degrees) of displacement of
the fuselage axis, and the diameter and shape of the "tunnel" will
depend on he aircraft's speed and rate of roll: they do not form part of
the judging criteria."

Source: Eric Muller in "Flight Unlimited".

Dudley,

I think you are mixing up the terms 'coordinated control pressures' and
'coordinated flight'. I have never seen a definition of coordinated flight
(in the context that we are discussing here - 'head orientation in _turns_'
or barrel rolls for that matter) that would mean 'coordinated control
pressures' as you define it.

From the FAA handbook of aeronautical knowledge:

"True, an airplane may be banked to 90° but not in a coordinated

turn; an airplane which can be held in a 90°

banked slipping turn is capable of straight knifeedged

flight."

An aircraft doing a straight line knife edge is not in coordinated flight.
It may even be argued if the term 'coordinated flight' is applicable for
non-turning flight but you can always interpret straight-line flight as a
turn of infinite diameter. In any case, the nose of the airplane is not
aligned with it's flightpath, the ball is not centered, the plane is not in
coordinated flight during a knife edge.

http://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/l...ro+Slidesli p

"Sideslip is the angle with which the relative wind meets the longitudinal
axis of the airplane. In all-engine flight with symmetrical power, zero
sideslip occurs with the ball of the slip-skid indicator centered. Pilots
know this concept as "coordinated flight." "

The conditions characterizing 'coordinated flight' mentioned in the text
above clearly do not apply to knife-edge flight: Ball not centered, the
relative wind is not meeting the longitudinal axis of the a/c at 0 deg.

Sierk

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061123362943658-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-11 23:13:58 -0400, "Maxwell" said:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061121444816807-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-10 22:41:49 -0400, "Maxwell" said:

That is either untrue, or real misleading. The Blues fly with a
different
purpose, keep the aircraft on trajectory. When they are flying a knife
edge,
they are hardly coordinated, as with many other maneuvers.

A 1g barrel roll can be done, but the required trajectory of the
aircraft
is
not going to be one that is necessarily eye pleasing for ground
demonstration purposes.

Actually, when the Blues or anyone else is in knife edge, they are
indeed
in coordinated flight. You hold the aircraft in knife edge with top
rudder
and forward neutral stick; this control pressure combination has to be
perfectly coordinated to maintain knife edge.
You are confusing coordinated with meaning the control pressures must be
complementary which is a common mistake often made.
The first lesson we teach in aerobatics is that "coordinated" has
absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the controls not being crossed.
Actually, any good flight instructor will teach this to a new primary
student during the first hour of dual :-)
Dudley Henriques


Then define coordinated.

Surely.
Coordinated as that applies to control pressures while in flight defines
ANY application of controls in ANY DIRECTION where the pressure applied to
each individual control achieves a specific desired resulting change in
the flight path of the aircraft .
A non slipping or skidding ball centered turn entry or exit is a
coordinated control movement. In this case the control pressures applied
are in the same direction and uncrossed.
Conversely, a deliberate slip or a slow roll is also a coordinated control
movement resulting in a specific change and effect in the flight path of
the aircraft. In this case the controls are not applied in the same
direction and are said to be crossed.
Again, crossed controls does NOT mean uncoordinated.
Dudley Henriques

On 2007-06-12 07:38:47 -0400, Bob Moore said:

Dudley Henriques wrote
Any roll performed by an airplane through 3 dimensional space is a
barrel roll by definition.

"Ah well...there you go again." Dudley.

Once again I am posting Wikipedia's (and mine) definition of a
"barrel roll". Now, would you be so kind as to post the source
of the definition that you use. BTW, William Kershner shares the
Wikipedia definition in his "The Flight Instructor's Manual.

Just point us at the definition.

Barrel roll
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In aviation, the maneuver includes a constant variation of attitude in all
three axes, and at the midpoint (top) of the roll, the aircraft is flying
inverted, with the nose pointing at a 90-degree angle ("sideways") to the
general path of flight. The term "barrel roll" is frequently used,
incorrectly, to refer to any roll by an airplane (see aileron roll), or to
a helical roll in which the nose remains pointed generally along the flight
path. In fact, the barrel roll is a *SPECIFIC* and difficult maneuver; a
combination of a roll and a loop. It is not used in aerobatic competition.

Bob Moore

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the definition you are offering
here and also see no conflict with your Wikipedia definition and my
own, which is completely in line with Bill Kershner, a man whose
manuals I have used to teach students to fly for many years.
I think you are misreading me. Either that or you are misunderstanding
what I am saying about barrel rolls and 3 dimensional space.
Anytime you roll an airplane deliberately through all 3 dimensions you
have performed a barrel roll by definition.
You can spilt rolls down into categories that-consider aileron rolls,
slow rolls, barrel rolls, and snaps. The only roll that is DELIBERATELY
FLOWN through all 3 dimensions is a barrel roll. Aileron rolls are
initiated and flown on the longitudinal axis. Any movement in pitch is
incidental to maintaining altitude. The main thing about aileron rolls
is that the roll is MAINLY being flown with aileron. The elevators and
rudder can be used of course but are simply "trimming up" the roll.
An aileron roll is classified as a 2 dimensional maneuver through 3
dimensional space.
A slow roll is also flown on the longitudinal axis of the airplane and
is considered a 2 dimensional maneuver through 3 dimensional space.
A snap roll is in a category all it's own, but is basically flown again
on the longitudinal axis of the aircraft but with rudder application to
induce accelerated stall on that axis.
A barrel roll on the other hand, is DELIBERATELY FLOWN through 3
dimensional space by control application resulting in the aircraft
changing flight path on the vertical and longitudinal axis. Throw in
the necessary forward movement of the aircraft through the roll and you
have a 3 dimensional maneuver through 3 dimensional space which I
believe is exactly what I have said :-)
I have absolutely no objection at all to you verifying this with
another credible source and reporting back to us here if that is your
wish.
I would suggest perhaps a quick email to Navy TPS might do the trick :-)
Dudley Henriques

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...

And you haven't backed up your claim that motor cyclists are actually
taught the way you claim they are.

That's taught in the 'how to not fall off your bike' class.

1) This is a motorcycle.

2) To prevent falling off this powerful machine, many newbies have found
that keeping their head vertical to the road prevents them from getting too
dizzy and falling off.

3) Please note: your motorcycle instructors are not newbies, therefore are
not likely to fall off their bikes, so you probably won't see anyone who has
made more than twenty-five left hand turns twisting their head like a dog to
keep it level with the ground.

So: the real question is: when using MSFS, should a newbie keep her head
level with the REAL horizon, or the Artificial Horizon?

On 2007-06-12 08:40:42 -0400, "Sierk Melzer" said:

Dudley,

I think you are mixing up the terms 'coordinated control pressures' and
'coordinated flight'. I have never seen a definition of coordinated flight
(in the context that we are discussing here - 'head orientation in _turns_'
or barrel rolls for that matter) that would mean 'coordinated control
pressures' as you define it.

From the FAA handbook of aeronautical knowledge:

"True, an airplane may be banked to 90° but not in a coordinated

turn; an airplane which can be held in a 90°

banked slipping turn is capable of straight knifeedged

flight."

An aircraft doing a straight line knife edge is not in coordinated flight.
It may even be argued if the term 'coordinated flight' is applicable for
non-turning flight but you can always interpret straight-line flight as a
turn of infinite diameter. In any case, the nose of the airplane is not
aligned with it's flightpath, the ball is not centered, the plane is not in
coordinated flight during a knife edge.

http://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/l...ro+Slidesli p

"Sideslip

is the angle with which the relative wind meets the longitudinal
axis of the airplane. In all-engine flight with symmetrical power, zero
sideslip occurs with the ball of the slip-skid indicator centered. Pilots
know this concept as "coordinated flight." "

The conditions characterizing 'coordinated flight' mentioned in the text
above clearly do not apply to knife-edge flight: Ball not centered, the
relative wind is not meeting the longitudinal axis of the a/c at 0 deg.

Sierk


You could indeed stretch a point on this and you would be absolutely correct.
Pilots (and especially aerobatic instructors like myself) have a strong
tendency to teach coordinated control pressure to produce desired
result rather than any coined definition of coordinated flight. At our
stage of performance, the term "coordinated" must indeed be redefined
to include the extended envelope of the aircraft in which we operate.
For example, in going to knife edge, if the control pressures are not
perfectly timed and applied with the exact "coordinnated" pressure
necessary to change the aircraft's flight path from where it is to
where it must be to produce knife edge, the maneuver is blown. This is
coordinated movement producing the desired result. To us, this is
coordinated flight and is as normal a control application as a
coordinated turn entry with the ball centered might be to a pilot
flying within the normal definition for "coordinated".
I believe you are correct in defining coordinated flight as you are and
have no problem with that.
In turn, you should consider that there are "extended levels" in flying
an airplane where pilots must redefine the basic definitions for
coordinated flight.
Dudley Henriques

"Maxwell" wrote in news:WMvbi.560843$2Q1.316920
@newsfe16.lga:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.130...
"Maxwell" wrote in news:WMobi.97857$vE1.10405
@newsfe24.lga:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.130...
"Maxwell" wrote in
:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.130...

Dudley's right, you're wrong,. You're twisting the argument to
suit
yourself, changeing the language and rules as you go...




No I'm not.
Reference my post from this morning.

Yeah right..


No, you mean yeah, correct.


No, I meeant you're a fjukkwit in the same league as mxsmanic.


Gotcha!

No, you didn't.

Bertei

"Maxwell" wrote in news:vNvbi.560844$2Q1.322049
@newsfe16.lga:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.130...
"Maxwell" wrote in
:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061123501111272-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-11 23:36:31 -0400, "Maxwell" said:


Can you roll the wings of an aircraft 360 and hold 0g? How about
1g?
How about -1g?

I'm beginning to get this awful feeling that you and I just might
not
be made for each other :-))
Let's just call it a day shall we. I really have no problem at all
allowing you to think I'm not as smart about aerobatics as you are
and I'm afraid we're getting fairly close to where I usually get
paid
for this stuff. :-)
I have enjoyed our time together. Take care.
Dudley Henriques


Simple question. Can you or can you not.


Oops! you seem to have run out of people who give a fjukk what you
think.


Nah, Dudley just ran out of dance steps.

No, he didn't. He gave you an accurate explanation which went over your
head and now you';re trying to dance your way out of it.


Fjukkwit.


Bertie

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Maxwell writes:

Certainly not. If you think you cannot roll the wings of an aircraft,
and remain in total control of the g loading, you are totally
incorrect.

Unless you possess an antigravity device, you're never in total
control of the G loading.


Yes, you are.

Fjukktard.


Bertie

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Erik writes:

Yep. I'll be suspect number one if I ever fly into france and
you happen to disappear.

Are you married? Have a girlfriend? Ever apply for a job that requires
interaction with others, especially in close proximity or alone?


Are you a freak? Never married? No friends? Everr have any meaningful
interaction with others, espicailly in close proximity or alone?


Bertie

Bob Moore wrote in
46.128:

Dudley Henriques wrote
Any roll performed by an airplane through 3 dimensional space is a
barrel roll by definition.

"Ah well...there you go again." Dudley.

Once again I am posting Wikipedia's (and mine) definition of a
"barrel roll". Now, would you be so kind as to post the source
of the definition that you use. BTW, William Kershner shares the
Wikipedia definition in his "The Flight Instructor's Manual.

Just point us at the definition.

Barrel roll
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In aviation, the maneuver includes a constant variation of attitude in
all three axes, and at the midpoint (top) of the roll, the aircraft is
flying inverted, with the nose pointing at a 90-degree angle
("sideways") to the general path of flight. The term "barrel roll" is
frequently used, incorrectly, to refer to any roll by an airplane (see
aileron roll), or to a helical roll in which the nose remains pointed
generally along the flight path. In fact, the barrel roll is a
*SPECIFIC* and difficult maneuver; a combination of a roll and a loop.
It is not used in aerobatic competition.


Pretty much correct. Here's the IAC's definition...

The Barrel Roll is a not competition maneuver. I The barrel roll is a
combination between a loop and a roll. You complete one loop while
completing one roll at the same time. The flight path during a barrel
roll has the shape of a horizontal cork screw. Imagine a big barrel,
with the airplanes wheels rolling along the inside of the barrel in a
cork screw path. During a barrel roll, the pilot experiences always
positive G's. The maximum is about 2.5 to 3 G, the minimum about 0.5 G.

You're like the proverbial three blind men examining an elephant
(Mxsmanic would be the fourth examining it's pile of dung)


Bertie