How accurate was B-26 bombing?

From: "Tarver Engineering"
Date: 2/29/2004 3:59 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


"B2431" wrote in message
...

From: "Tarver Engineering"


Once my brother was out with 1st Air Cav team as radioman and fell asleep
before they got to the jump site. The rotary wing had begun to roll so
the
one of the othe seargents gave him a lift push. His AR went barrel first
into the ground and landed head first on the rifle butt, but he doesn't
have
a purple heart.


They don't give purple hearts for stupidity or clumsiness.

That does not always seem to be the case.


Why, did you get one for being stupid or clumsy?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 2/29/04 3:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 2/29/04 2:13 PM Pacific Standard Time

Can we see some of your strike photos?


Sure old man.

To be fair, these two are actually the result of two 2-ships, but my
formation
hit it first.

Befo http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-003.jpg

After:
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-004.jpg

This mission was very interesting...to say the least:
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/b990514i.jpg

The rest of my strikes to make "news" were JDAM strikes. The one thing
you
will
notice is that mil dispersion pretty much ensures a few of your
weapons
are
going to miss by a good distance, despite what you say. If you look at
the
Batajanica images, we threw a few M-117s out "in the weeds". We had
anticiapated this because some of the weapons were in pretty bad
shape.
Unlike
you, we realized that sending a loader back to get us some new weapons
would
have interfered with the "hustle & bustle" of flightline ops, so we
pressed
on.


The runway was shutdown for the remainder of the conflict, although
Eagle
pilots flying around probably aided in shutting down flight ops there
as
much
as our weapons did.

Were you trying to make a point with your question?


BUFDRVR


YTHe point I was triyng to make was that we flew misison swith dumb
bimbs
that
were sometimes as accurate as mision flown today with smart bombs.

LOL! Nope. Accuracy is usually guaged by CEP. Getting a single bomb, or
two
or three, to hit the given aim point, while a laudable event, does not
mean
that your strike was inherently accurate--because the other 200 bombs
ended
up spread over a quarter section. Your CEP during WWII was abysmal
compared
to that which was evidenced during Vietnam (with dumb bombs). Modern dumb

For a guy who spent his entire military career behind a desk in Ohio, you
sure
have a good line of bull****.

Firstly, I told you before, the only military duty I ever performed in Ohio
was serving as OIC of the funeral detail for some Ranger who wrapped his car
around a telephone pole outside FT Benning. No desk sitting was required, as
I was TDY from my post. Secondly, it is interesting that once again you
can't bring yourself to address the points raised-- especially from that
other B-26 bombadier who rather adroitly trashed your "we never missed" BS
(we see you are still having severe problems with that whole concept of
"truthfulness"). Thirdly, you plonked me earlier today (for about the third
time)...you forgot already?

Brooks



Arthur Kramer

I am sure everything you say is true. But I stand by the strike photos on my

website which as you can see a lot of "shacks" were scored under difficult
coimbat conditions. The photos don't lie

How many B-26 dropped on the bridge? I've already said that *some* aircraft
will be able to get "shacks", but depending on your CEP, that percentage should
be no more than 20-25% (maybe less if your CEP is large enough). So...if you
fly a 100 aircraft raid up to as many as 25 aircraft (CEP depending) will shack
the target. *However*, another 25% will exceed your CEP by a magnitude of 2 for
every shack. Bottom line: You can't see CEP in one or even a dozen BDA photos.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

On 01 Mar 2004 02:55:46 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:


Mil dispersion saves a single building. Chances are, anyone in it has white
hair and is deaf.


ROTFL! Frantically looking for clean underwear I would have thought.



greg

--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

Subject: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 3/1/04 3:10 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I am sure everything you say is true. But I stand by the strike photos on my

website which as you can see a lot of "shacks" were scored under difficult
coimbat conditions. The photos don't lie

How many B-26 dropped on the bridge? I've already said that *some* aircraft
will be able to get "shacks", but depending on your CEP, that percentage
should
be no more than 20-25% (maybe less if your CEP is large enough). So...if you
fly a 100 aircraft raid up to as many as 25 aircraft (CEP depending) will
shack
the target. *However*, another 25% will exceed your CEP by a magnitude of 2
for
every shack. Bottom line: You can't see CEP in one or even a dozen BDA
photos.


BUFDRVR


We flew a 56 plane formation. And while what you say is true the bottom line is
that we attacked the target and when we left it was destoyed as the photos
clearly show., What else is there? And I am sure as you pointed out luck is
involved, but you must admit we had an awful lot of luck. Maybe with all that
luck there was also a bit of skill involved as well. At least that was the
reputation of the 344th.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Bob McKellar" wrote in message
...


However, Cleland did receive the Silver Star for an earlier
action. He was an active combat experienced soldier.

Bull****, Cleland got the silver star for being fragged, or dropped the
grenade himself.

From: "Tarver Engineering"


"Bob McKellar" wrote in message
...


However, Cleland did receive the Silver Star for an earlier
action. He was an active combat experienced soldier.

Bull****, Cleland got the silver star for being fragged, or dropped the
grenade himself.


Tarver, once again you don't know what you are talking about. Cleland got his
silver star for actions four days before the grenade fumble. You don't get
silver stars for incidents of fratricide.

Cite: http://miller.senate.gov/floor/120903clelandnom.html

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: "Tarver Engineering"


"Bob McKellar" wrote in message
...


However, Cleland did receive the Silver Star for an earlier
action. He was an active combat experienced soldier.

Bull****, Cleland got the silver star for being fragged, or dropped the
grenade himself.


Tarver, once again you don't know what you are talking about. Cleland got
his
silver star for actions four days before the grenade fumble. You don't get
silver stars for incidents of fratricide.

Politics always plays into awards, Dan.

On 29 Feb 2004 22:13:51 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

To be fair, these two are actually the result of two 2-ships, but my formation
hit it first.

Befo http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-003.jpg

After:
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-004.jpg

This mission was very interesting...to say the least:
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/b990514i.jpg

The rest of my strikes to make "news" were JDAM strikes. The one thing you will
notice is that mil dispersion pretty much ensures a few of your weapons are
going to miss by a good distance, despite what you say. If you look at the
Batajanica images, we threw a few M-117s out "in the weeds". We had
anticiapated this because some of the weapons were in pretty bad shape. Unlike
you, we realized that sending a loader back to get us some new weapons would
have interfered with the "hustle & bustle" of flightline ops, so we pressed on.

BUFDRVR,

First of all, nice shooting (dropping?lobbing?) either way. Bloody
good BDA. A quick question though....

Are the M-117s still being manufactured, or is it *still* a case of
running down old stock?

If they are still being produced, why? Do they have a noticably better
CEP over a Mk.82/83, or are they significantly cheaper?

Thanks,

---
Peter Kemp

Life is short - drink faster

(BUFDRVR) wrote in message ...

To be fair, these two are actually the result of two 2-ships, but my formation
hit it first.

Befo http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-003.jpg

After:
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-004.jpg

Think you used enough dynamite there, Butch?

Wow.

-jake