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Leading Turns With Rudder
Hi All,
An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible future problems. Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions (particularly those of other CFI's) to help present a case to possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this group. -Paul |
#2
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On Jul 21, 9:53*am, sisu1a wrote:
Hi All, An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible future problems. Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions (particularly those of *other CFI's) to help present a case to possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this group. -Paul I was taught to lead with the rudder as well - and by a very good CFIG. I believe the idea is: 1) to build up a little angular momentum into the turn, 2) to use differential tip speeds to pick up the outside wing with less adverse yaw and, 3) to overcome any tendency for students to try to turn only with the stick. On many very long- winged gliders, you really can't set the turn up properly with out slewing the aircraft to use the differential tip speeds to help pick the wing up. If you use too much aileron to initiate the turn the adverse yaw makes a mess of things. Obviously kicking the rudder hard at stall can have a bad effect and most pilots I know believe that a steady state turn with a little slip is optimal because the fuselage produces a little lift and since the yaw string is ahead of the c.g. it will show a tiny amount of slip in a coordinated turn to start with. But overall the safest advice is to keep the yaw string centered and not do anything too aggressive with the controls. 9B |
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Leading Turns With Rudder
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#4
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Leading Turns With Rudder
I was taught to keep the string in the middle and to use whatever inputs
are needed to achive this. I was encouraged to experiment and find out by myself what this means and was pointed to the fact that different ships may need different inputs. |
#5
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Leading Turns With Rudder
I too was taught to use rudder first but I have a hard time viewing
that as "intentionally skidding". It was more like "lead with the rudder". ~ted/2NO |
#6
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:
Hi All, An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible future problems. Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions (particularly those of other CFI's) to help present a case to possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this group. -Paul Actually I learned to do the same thing, although from a commercial pilot rather than my instructor. Especially with long wing and/or slippery gliders (as opposed to the 2-33, which was rather forgiving in this matter) the rudder tends to be underpowered, so you can clean up your coordination easier with adverse yaw. It seems backward, but it works well if you understand the principle involved. Personally I don't teach that to a student until they've got a good understanding of the controls, however. One thing in particular that my instructor taught me is the importance of really good coordination. As a student, when I tried thermalling, I would find that my instructor was "helping" me out when the yawstring would suddenly "starch" itself exactly in the center and the vario would suddenly read about 200fpm better (he was really bad about that "my plane, your plane" business, and so I tend to be bad about it myself!). -- Matt |
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:
An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do is feed in rudder. [snip] If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked. End of story. |
#8
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On Jul 21, 12:11*pm, PMSC Member wrote:
On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote: An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do is feed in rudder. [snip] If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked. End of story. And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets. Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions students to developing a feel for flying these gliders. Darryl |
#9
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Leading Turns With Rudder
On Jul 21, 2:27*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 21, 12:11*pm, PMSC Member wrote: On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote: An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do is feed in rudder. [snip] If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked. End of story. And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets. Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions students to developing a feel for flying these gliders. Darryl Darryl, You captured better what I was trying to say. I was still typing when you posted your message. Dave |
#10
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Leading Turns With Rudder
"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message ... On Jul 21, 12:11 pm, PMSC Member wrote: On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote: An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do is feed in rudder. [snip] If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked. End of story. And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets. Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions students to developing a feel for flying these gliders. Darryl I teach in a ASK21 and previously G103. Both exhibit adverse yaw very clearly. The only way to "coordinate" the turn in one of these is to begin with a touch of rudder, a tenth of a second before the aileron. Well, actually not quantitated but just to illustrate the idea. The nose must begin to turn (let's say) left as the left aileron is applied. If the student is a bit late on the rudder, the turn will just look and feel a bit "sloppy". So, I say "just start the rudder first, then bring in the aileron, to make the nose move in proportion to the stick." This will keep the string centered. Most students are late on the rudder, so this gets them "caught up". This is not necessary on our club single place gliders, but by then, the students know how to coordinate a turn by how it looks and feels. Hartley Falbaum CFIG, Master SSA XC CFIG USA |
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