A bit breezy today...

On 1/31/2014 4:06 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2014 1:29:06 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:

snip from son_of_flubber

My take away: Should I live long enough, I will eventually be tempted
to launch when I know that I had better not.

Says Dan:
...And why, Dear Flub, should you better not?

I was thinking that someday there will be a tow pilot that will be willing
to aerotow me when the margins for me launching (and landing) in a glider
are thin to adverse. The commercial tow pilots that aerotow me have much
greater ability (and a 250 hp engine). I honestly don't know, is it harder
or easier to land a Pawnee or a glider in gusty conditions? I assume that
the Pawnee could at least "go around" (plus the tow pilot has a lot more
experience.)

When I read your account, I put myself in the shoes of the glider pilot
that decided to launch with your one and only tow of the day. One of the
hardest things for me is to go home without flying because of marginal
conditions. It's hard because other people are launching and landing, and
it is especially hard when there is tremendous lift after a "dry spell".

I guess I'm saying that it is tempting for me to follow the lead of the tow
pilot and other glider pilots, and so my take away is that I need to be
aware of that temptation and peer pressure. I almost feel like I should
write on (and read from) the top of my checklist "I will be tempted to
launch when I should just go home."

"Pilot, know thyself!" certainly applies to these sorts of soaring go/no-go
decisions.

When I had less than 200 total hours and was flying a 1-26, both in the
mountains of MD and the intermountain west, I found there were days when
towpilots declined to tow, when I thought I could handle pattern conditions
safely...even if actual soaring might not be possible. Back then I felt "the
acquiring of stick time" was near the top of my priority list...from which all
good things might then flow. (And yes, I recognized I had my own limits, which
were 100% my responsibility to determine and respect.)

A couple of years and couple hundred hours later, I was flying a short-span
(16.5 meter), V-tailed, HP-14, with the as-designed (short-span) ailerons.
Somewhat to my dismay (but not surprise), I found then that I would quit
towing before the towpilots would. This reflected my assessment of what that
ship (and I) could safely do in raucous pattern conditions. (It was leisurely
in roll and had distinctly less rudder authority than a 1-26.) I know it cost
me some soaring days, but OTOH, the ship's performance (and growing
experience) allowed me to gain stick time that may not have been possible in a
1-26. Other pilots' decisions to tow - and successfully go soaring - had zero
impact on my own thought process and decision-making.

I found the first situation (i.e. "Darn! No one will tow me [or anyone
else!]") far more surprising than the latter (i.e. "*I* ain't towing today!),
because it was the first time I gained a quantitative sense of my growing
skill set, whereas the second realization was a no-brainer, for me.

As Clint Eastwood and Renny R. said, "A man's GOT to know his own limitations!"

Bob W.

On Friday, January 31, 2014 7:11:13 PM UTC-5, BobW wrote:
I found there were days when towpilots declined to tow, when I thought I could handle pattern conditions safely...

I felt a little silly when one day last summer a table full of CFIGs and tow pilots were just finishing up a meeting. One looked up and asked me "So Flub, do you want to go fly?" Only after I pointed out that conditions had calmed down considerably in the last hour, and that I was game, did I realize that they were pulling my leg. It was still too gusty to seriously think about launching. The go/no-go decisions sometimes seem very subtle to me and the variation in personal limits from pilot to pilot make it hard to learn from observation.

The thing that I find most helpful is to watch a few launches and landings, and then decide, but of course I can't do that on a slow day. There's no WX at the home airport and the wind sock seems a crude indicator, especially on a variable day.

In article "Dan Marotta" writes:
My buddy in Buena Vista woke up to 18 inches of snow this morning. We could
sure use some snow in NM.

snip from son_of_flubber

My take away: Should I live long enough, I will eventually be tempted to
launch when I know that I had better not.


...And why, Dear Flub, should you better not? As long as the pilots are
proficient and the controls are not hitting the stops, the takeoff and
landing are safe. In the past 90 days, I've made 146 takeoffs and landings
in various tail draggers (mostly the Ag Wagon) and the DPE (and owner) was
administering the BFR.


Perhaps he was following the advice "If there's any doubt, there is no doubt."

The controls may not be hitting the stops during the takeoff, but if there
is doubt that they may be later on, then there is no doubt about the decision
to not fly.

Alan

p.s. How will this decision read in an accident report?

On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 18:35:14 -0800, son_of_flubber wrote:

The thing that I find most helpful is to watch a few launches and
landings, and then decide, but of course I can't do that on a slow day.
There's no WX at the home airport and the wind sock seems a crude
indicator, especially on a variable day.

You could buy yourself a hand-held anemometer: the Davis units are very
good and don't cost an arm and a leg.

Several years back I made some measurements with a Davis anemometer, GPS,
stopwatch and free flight F1A towline glider. I flew the model as normal
with 2 or 3 minutes set on the dethermaliser, fired it into a thermal off
the standard 50m towline, timed it down, checked the anemometer reading
before and after the flight and then took a GPS with me when I went to
pick the model up so I knew how far it had gone. This was done on a
sunny, thermally day with a wind speed of around 3 m/s (6kts). The flying
field was a large flat, grazed grassy area.

This showed that the average wind speed in the bottom 400-500 ft is about
200% of the anemometer reading when held above my head and far enough in
front for me to read it, i.e. 2m above the ground.

So, once you've checked the wind speed, double it to get the estimated
wind at flying height and compare that with your personal comfort level
to determine whether to fly or not.

My personal XC limit is around 20 kts at flying height: anything above 18
kts means that I have to keep an eye on the drift when rounding a
turnpoint (I fly a relatively slow Std Libelle) and, here in the UK with
its 2-4kt thermals, wind of more than 25 kts tends to break thermals up
unless its a very thermic day.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Kirk is spot on.

Last year I watched from the window as one of the big names at Moriarty flew
in at 45 degrees to the runway, landed just over the tie downs, rolled
across our staging area, and stopped short of the runway.

I once landed perpendicular to the runway at Black Forest, rolled across the
grass infield, gravel taxiway and apron, and stopped in front of the hangar.
They I had to "fly" the glider on the ground until the rain and hail
finished their work before anyone would step outside to help.

I do not advocate that people go out and do such things for sport, but you
should be proficient at cross wind operations and always have a plan of
action when it's too strong (which, the other day, it was not). If we did
not takeoff in strong winds, we'd miss a lot of great flights.

"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...
Son_of_flubber, you do realize that when the wind is really strong, the
problem of a crosswind no longer exists?

Cuz now you can land ACROSS the runway!

BTDT, and seen it done many times. It's amazing how small a place you can
put a glider into when the wind is around 40 knots!

And, seriously, it's fun.

Its a good skill to have in your hip pocket for when you get back to the
field the same time as a strong gust front. The next time the wind is
strong (for takeoff, it helps if it's somewhat aligned with the runway), go
out and fly and find out what kind of pattern is needed when your
groundspeed on final is in the teens.

Kirk
66

You sound like you have excellent judgment, Flub.

You should never takeoff when you don't feel qualified (just yet) just
because some of the old heads are doing it. Please recall that, on my only
flight of two days ago, that the wind was only about 20-30 degrees off
runway heading. That means, as I'm sure you know, that the maximum cross
wind component was no more than half of the total wind speed, or about 15
kts, which is well within the capabilities of the Ag Wagon, and approaching
the limit of the Grob. The CFI on board for the flight review is also the
owner of the operation and all the aircraft and he's an FAA Designated Pilot
Examiner. It's certainly in his best interests that everything be safe.

On a day like the one in question, he will always ask me if I'm comfortable
with the tow and, yesterday, I was. Had the wind been from the left side, I
may very well have declined since there would have marginal rudder authority
to control the Ag Wagon on the ground.

I'm very proud of my record of 41 years of flying and never having damaged
an aircraft. On two separate occasions this past year, I've pushed my
glider back off the launch line because I was not happy with the winds.
Others launched.

Where do you fly?

"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
...
On Friday, January 31, 2014 1:29:06 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:

snip from son_of_flubber

My take away: Should I live long enough, I will eventually be tempted to
launch when I know that I had better not.

Says Dan:
...And why, Dear Flub, should you better not?

I was thinking that someday there will be a tow pilot that will be willing
to aerotow me when the margins for me launching (and landing) in a glider
are thin to adverse. The commercial tow pilots that aerotow me have much
greater ability (and a 250 hp engine). I honestly don't know, is it harder
or easier to land a Pawnee or a glider in gusty conditions? I assume that
the Pawnee could at least "go around" (plus the tow pilot has a lot more
experience.)

When I read your account, I put myself in the shoes of the glider pilot that
decided to launch with your one and only tow of the day. One of the hardest
things for me is to go home without flying because of marginal conditions.
It's hard because other people are launching and landing, and it is
especially hard when there is tremendous lift after a "dry spell".

I guess I'm saying that it is tempting for me to follow the lead of the tow
pilot and other glider pilots, and so my take away is that I need to be
aware of that temptation and peer pressure. I almost feel like I should
write on (and read from) the top of my checklist "I will be tempted to
launch when I should just go home."

On Friday, January 31, 2014 5:29:50 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:

There are some extraordinary pilots in gliders and I need to realize my limitations and be careful to not think "well if he did it, so can I". The range of abilities and risk tolerance is very large.

"Extraordinary" is usually a code word for either "takes a lot of risks" or for "has a lot of experience". Sometimes, it's hard to tell the difference...but experience is something we need to continually seek and develop.

As far a winds, taking off in strong crosswinds are a real problem that can be easily avoided by having a beer and putting away the glider; but landing in strong winds is one of those things we have to practice and be prepared for, as you know. Help to think about it beforehand, know where on your field you can land in any direction, and be prepared to land there if needed - and remember you don't have to land in a straight line, either.

As far as towing, a Pawnee or a Supercub can be a handful in a strong crosswind - when you run out of rudder you are done and have to go somewhere else! If the towpilot will fly, then a glider should have no problem, but I've landed gliders in conditions I would not have enjoyed trying to get a towplane down and stopped...

Cheers!

Kirk
66

On Saturday, February 1, 2014 10:49:57 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:

You could buy yourself a hand-held anemometer: the Davis units are very
good and don't cost an arm and a leg.

That would make my observations more objective.

Here is the current Davis model
http://www.amazon.com/Brand-Davis-El...ometer%3ADavis

I like this device and it also gives a direct readout of dewpoint http://www.amazon.com/Extech-45158-W...rds=anemometer Same price as the Davis digital.

Here is a knockoff of a similar design, not waterproof and no dewpoint measurement http://www.amazon.com/WeatherHawk-SM...rds=anemometer

This Davis model is not pocket sized but it is a robust mechanical design. http://www.amazon.com/Davis-Wizard-M...ometer%3ADavis

There are a bunch of extremely cheap ones available that may or may not work and carry no guarantee. Not sure I would trust the readings from a piece of junk.

Dan Marotta wrote:

What is your real name?
Where do you fly?
What is your social security number?

I've given plenty of hints, and lots of people have guessed correctly, but my mama taught me well, to never give my real name, age, or personally identifying details to other kids that I meet on the internet.

It's also fun when I meet someone new in soaring circles and they match up my "in-world" person with Son_of_Flubber in less than five minutes. So in the interest of maximizing fun, I can only say, "I am Spartacus." Game not over.

On Monday, February 3, 2014 11:52:52 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote:



What is your real name?

Where do you fly?

What is your social security number?



I've given plenty of hints, and lots of people have guessed correctly, but my mama taught me well, to never give my real name, age, or personally identifying details to other kids that I meet on the internet.



It's also fun when I meet someone new in soaring circles and they match up my "in-world" person with Son_of_Flubber in less than five minutes. So in the interest of maximizing fun, I can only say, "I am Spartacus." Game not over.

No, I am Spartacus......