russia vs. japan in 1941 [WAS: 50% of NAZI oil..]

In article , "Bill
Silvey" wrote:

Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred
hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war on
Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact.

russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have
to look in obscure sources to find out about it.

readers of rec.aviation.military are undoubtably familiar with the
accounts of the flying tigers in china. these books describe the
russian conflict with china in this period, both as mercenaries for
china and direct conflict on the soviet border.

In sci.military.naval wrote:
: In article , "Bill
: Silvey" wrote:

: Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred
: hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war on
: Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact.

100% fact? Hmmmm, wasn't Kamchatka already in Soviet hands?
Perhaps you are thinking of Sakhalin and some of the Kurile islands?

regards,
-----------------------------------------------------------------

wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill
Silvey" wrote:

Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred
hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war
on
Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact.

russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have
to look in obscure sources to find out about it.



While the Soviets gave some aid to the chinese communists
and sent them some advisors it was minor and the only soviet
military involvement was in the form of the Nomonhan incident
in May1939 as a result of a Japanese incursion into Soviet
territory. The Japanese were given such a beating that they
hurriedly signed a non-aggression pact with the USSR which held
until August 1945. Indeed in 1945 the Japanese peace faction were
trying to contact the western allies via the USSR since it was a neutral.


Keith

wrote in message ...
In article , "Bill
Silvey" wrote:

Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred
hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war on
Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact.

russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have
to look in obscure sources to find out about it.

readers of rec.aviation.military are undoubtably familiar with the
accounts of the flying tigers in china. these books describe the
russian conflict with china in this period, both as mercenaries for
china and direct conflict on the soviet border.


Indeed.

At Khalkyn Gol between May and September 1939 the Japanese were
crushed by Zhukov, sustaining over 80,000 casualties to the Russians'
11,130. Within a single week the Japanses lost 25,000 men. The
entire Japanese 6th army was completely destroyed.

The Battle of Khalkin Gol was Zhukov's illustration of Deep
Penetration tactics. The use of deception tactics, extremely fast
tanks and mechanized forces to outflank an opponent's defenses, and
the combination of aerial, airborne, and ground troops lead to the
complete destruction of the Japanese 6th Army and to Japan's loss of a
sphere of influence in the Mongolian and Far Eastern regions.

This battle also featured the first successful use of air-to-air
missiles. Five Polikarpov I-16 Type 10 fighters under the command of
Capt. Zvonarev claimed destruction two Mitsubishi A5M by RS-82
unguided rockets.

Historians describe a conflict within the Japanese military about
whether to attack the USSR or the USA. The complete defeat att he
hands of the Soviets made that decision: Pearl Harbor happened because
the Japanese chose to attack the weaker foe.

BM

"The Black Monk" wrote in message
om...
wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill
Silvey" wrote:

Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan
massacred
hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared
war on
Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact.

russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have
to look in obscure sources to find out about it.

readers of rec.aviation.military are undoubtably familiar with the
accounts of the flying tigers in china. these books describe the
russian conflict with china in this period, both as mercenaries for
china and direct conflict on the soviet border.


Indeed.

At Khalkyn Gol between May and September 1939 the Japanese were
crushed by Zhukov, sustaining over 80,000 casualties to the Russians'
11,130. Within a single week the Japanses lost 25,000 men. The
entire Japanese 6th army was completely destroyed.

The Battle of Khalkin Gol was Zhukov's illustration of Deep
Penetration tactics. The use of deception tactics, extremely fast
tanks and mechanized forces to outflank an opponent's defenses, and
the combination of aerial, airborne, and ground troops lead to the
complete destruction of the Japanese 6th Army and to Japan's loss of a
sphere of influence in the Mongolian and Far Eastern regions.

This battle also featured the first successful use of air-to-air
missiles. Five Polikarpov I-16 Type 10 fighters under the command of
Capt. Zvonarev claimed destruction two Mitsubishi A5M by RS-82
unguided rockets.

Historians describe a conflict within the Japanese military about
whether to attack the USSR or the USA. The complete defeat att he
hands of the Soviets made that decision: Pearl Harbor happened because
the Japanese chose to attack the weaker foe.

Great post!

And, by choosing the eastern, Pacific route of expansion rather than the
western, they ensured that the Navy rather than the Army would have
precedence in the Japanese junta of the time. These guys made an absolute
art-form of inter-service rivalry!

Interesting to speculate what if they had pursued the western route instead.
Of course if they and the Nazis had been proper allies instead of
mistrustful (as well as untrustworthy!) basket cases, they'd have been
having this discussion in late 1940 or so.

Think Germany and Japan, working together in a coordinated way, could have
beaten the Soviets without bringing the US or UK into the war?

Germany has Barbarossa but without having Fall Gelb first. Japan
consolidates in China then attacks Siberia.

And then perhaps done Western Europe afterwards. Assume a 1938/9
understanding greater than actually happened.

John

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:08:25 +0100, John Mullen wrote:

Think Germany and Japan, working together in a coordinated way, could have
beaten the Soviets without bringing the US or UK into the war?

The UK entered the war because of the German invasion of Poland. If
instead of this, Germany, Poland and Japan had ganged up on Russia,
it's likely the UK would not have intervened. Ditto for the USA.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: , but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).

"John Mullen" wrote in message
...


Great post!

And, by choosing the eastern, Pacific route of expansion rather than the
western, they ensured that the Navy rather than the Army would have
precedence in the Japanese junta of the time. These guys made an absolute
art-form of inter-service rivalry!


Well yes but the army retained the upper hand, its not as if they
were doing nothing. There was this little war going on in China
If you read Yamamoto's biography its clear that the navy OPPOSED
war with the western powers.

Interesting to speculate what if they had pursued the western route
instead.
Of course if they and the Nazis had been proper allies instead of
mistrustful (as well as untrustworthy!) basket cases, they'd have been
having this discussion in late 1940 or so.

Think Germany and Japan, working together in a coordinated way, could have
beaten the Soviets without bringing the US or UK into the war?


No. The Americans woud still have cutt off their oil and Japan would
have to make a grab for Malaya and the NEI

Germany has Barbarossa but without having Fall Gelb first. Japan
consolidates in China then attacks Siberia.


Witl all their forces the Japanese were unable to consolidate
China and with their poor transport and meagre infrastructure
they couldnt possibly have made deep inroads into Siberia.

And then perhaps done Western Europe afterwards. Assume a 1938/9
understanding greater than actually happened.


It doesnt help, Japan simply lacked the manpower and resources.

Keith

Well yes but the army retained the upper hand, its not as if they
were doing nothing. There was this little war going on in China
If you read Yamamoto's biography its clear that the navy OPPOSED
war with the western powers.

Where in the world did you get this information? The Japanese army
longed to attack Russia. The Japanese navy longed to attack into the
"southern treasure chest", incidentally liberating Asia from British,
Dutch, and American imperialism.

War with the western powers (American, British, Dutch) was precisely
the navy's grand strategy, and the one that prevailed in the summer of
1941. The army had a busy six months, scrambling to get ready for a
war it had never planned for. This was of course the reason that the
Japanese army air force went to war with fewer than 100
retractable-gear Ki-43 Hayabusa fighters, the army's equivalent of the
navy Zero.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Well yes but the army retained the upper hand, its not as if they
were doing nothing. There was this little war going on in China
If you read Yamamoto's biography its clear that the navy OPPOSED
war with the western powers.

Where in the world did you get this information? The Japanese army
longed to attack Russia. The Japanese navy longed to attack into the
"southern treasure chest", incidentally liberating Asia from British,
Dutch, and American imperialism.


From the biography of Admiral Yamamoto which was written
by Hiroyuki Agawa published by Kodansha International

War with the western powers (American, British, Dutch) was precisely
the navy's grand strategy, and the one that prevailed in the summer of
1941. The army had a busy six months, scrambling to get ready for a
war it had never planned for.


The decision to go to war with America was taken by the
Japanese cabinet after the fall of the government led by Prince Konoye
The Konoye government had been following a policy of
attempting to negotiate a solution with the USA, the navy
minister in this government was Admiral Yamamoto who
had advised that war with the USA should be avoided at
all costs.


The Japanese leader who took over in Oct 1941 was of course
General Hideki Tojo who was a hard liner and it was under
his leadership and that of the army that the decison for war
was taken

Its a matter of record that Yamamoto was against this policy and the he
was sent to sea to avoid assassination by the pro-war faction.

This was of course the reason that the
Japanese army air force went to war with fewer than 100
retractable-gear Ki-43 Hayabusa fighters, the army's equivalent of the
navy Zero.


The Ki-43 'Oscar' was an entirely different aircraft from the zero of
course and its only real opposition in the initial attacks were
the Brewster Buffaloes of the RAF in Singapore. On the one
occasion it encountered the handful of Hurricanes available
they came off very much second best.

Keith

"John Mullen" wrote in message ...

snip great post

Great post!

It was.

And, by choosing the eastern, Pacific route of expansion rather than the
western, they ensured that the Navy rather than the Army would have
precedence in the Japanese junta of the time. These guys made an absolute
art-form of inter-service rivalry!

Interesting to speculate what if they had pursued the western route instead.
Of course if they and the Nazis had been proper allies instead of
mistrustful (as well as untrustworthy!) basket cases, they'd have been
having this discussion in late 1940 or so.

Think Germany and Japan, working together in a coordinated way, could have
beaten the Soviets without bringing the US or UK into the war?

Yes and no. Yes, Germany can attack the Soviets without the West
getting in the way. Skip the occupation of Prague, and go straight
for Poland. Poland is not well thought-of in the West, since they
joined in on the carveup of Czechoslovakia. Then occupy the Baltic
States. Now start the Anti-Bolshevik Crusade.

But they won't win.

Germany has Barbarossa but without having Fall Gelb first.

Germany looted a huge amount of gold, fuel, weapons, ammo, food,
trucks, and industrial production from occupied France. It came to
~15 gigabucks (1940 dollars) IIRC. Without these resources, the
German effort in the East is likely to fall a great deal short.

Japan consolidates in China

That will never happen.

then attacks Siberia.

And gets trounced as bad as they did in 1937 - 1939.

And there's no oil they can get to in Siberia, even if they do win,
which they won't.

And then perhaps done Western Europe afterwards. Assume a 1938/9
understanding greater than actually happened.

Dosen't help. Neither has what it takes, although the West might
support the Axis if it looks like the Bolshies are about to win it
all.

Stuart Wilkes