russia vs. japan in 1941 [WAS: 50% of NAZI oil..]

According to the first line, we were talking about WW1 :
The French were involved rather heavily in WW1 you'll find


"John Mullen" a écrit dans le message news:
...
"Christophe Chazot" wrote in message
...

"John Mullen" a écrit dans le message news:
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
(snip)


The French were involved rather heavily in WW1 you'll find


(snip)

France only learned from WW1 that war was to be avoided (perfectly
sensible)
and that a defensive strategy would deter Germany (turned out not to be
true
as we know). Many in Britain made the same mistakes, but you were unlucky
enough to be before us in the firing line.

John


Yep. "Too few, too late" was also true for the french armies...

Christophe

E. Barry Bruyea wrote in message . ..
On 22 Oct 2003 02:44:52 -0700, (Stuart Wilkes)
wrote:

"John Mullen" wrote in message ...

snip

We did not badly to win the air and sea battles with Nazi Germany. Neither
was easy and both had costs attached. Of course we couldn't have won
overall without the support of the USA and the USSR, both of which in
their own ways hedged their bets until the decision to enter the war was
forced upon them.

Not by their choice. The Soviets had alliances with Czechoslovakia
and France since 1935, and offered Great Britain and France a full-up
Triple Alliance with all the trimmings on 17 April 1939. Too bad
Chamberlain refused to take it seriously, preferring to pursue
Anglo-German agreement.

The only way that an treaty with the USSR could have been signed is to
accede to Stalin's demand for a free rein in the Baltic,

Yes, it is much better, from the point of view of an appeasing Western
Conservative, for Nazi Germany to have free rein in the Baltic.

an agreement not likely to have gone well with any of the Western powers.

Indeed, the Western powers were concerned to keep the Baltic States
out of Soviet hands. However, in the Anglo-German negotiations of the
summer of 1939, the British offered to recognize Eastern Europe as a
German sphere of influence. Last time I checked, the Baltic States
are in Eastern Europe. So the Western powers were indeed resolved to
keep the Baltic States out of Soviet hands, in order to preserve them
for the Nazi variety.

Stalin finally got it from Hitler, which is what he was after.

Indeed. After all, the prospects of Operation Barbarossa are much
improved if it is launched against the 1938 Soviet borders.

Stuart Wilkes

In article , The Black
Monk writes
wrote in message ...
In article , "Bill
Silvey" wrote:

Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred
hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war on
Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact.

russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have
to look in obscure sources to find out about it.

readers of rec.aviation.military are undoubtably familiar with the
accounts of the flying tigers in china. these books describe the
russian conflict with china in this period, both as mercenaries for
china and direct conflict on the soviet border.


Indeed.

At Khalkyn Gol between May and September 1939 the Japanese were
crushed by Zhukov, sustaining over 80,000 casualties to the Russians'
11,130. Within a single week the Japanses lost 25,000 men. The
entire Japanese 6th army was completely destroyed.

The Battle of Khalkin Gol was Zhukov's illustration of Deep
Penetration tactics. The use of deception tactics, extremely fast
tanks and mechanized forces to outflank an opponent's defenses, and
the combination of aerial, airborne, and ground troops lead to the
complete destruction of the Japanese 6th Army and to Japan's loss of a
sphere of influence in the Mongolian and Far Eastern regions.

This battle also featured the first successful use of air-to-air
missiles. Five Polikarpov I-16 Type 10 fighters under the command of
Capt. Zvonarev claimed destruction two Mitsubishi A5M by RS-82
unguided rockets.

It depends on your definitions. Aerial rockets had been used in WW I, to
destroy balloons rather than enemy heavier-than-air craft.
See: http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/leprieur.htm

Historians describe a conflict within the Japanese military about
whether to attack the USSR or the USA. The complete defeat att he
hands of the Soviets made that decision: Pearl Harbor happened because
the Japanese chose to attack the weaker foe.

BM

--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
...
Owe Jessen wrote:

:Am 21 Oct 2003 16:09:53 -0700, schrieb (The
:Black Monk) :
:
:Unfortunately, rather than statesmen Germany was led by madmen.
:Hitler's racial theories prevented him from making Germany a leader of
:Europe in the manner that America would later be. As Spengler
:predicted in 1936, Hitler's sick reich didn't last 10 years.
:
:If Germany would have been lead by statesmen and not madmen it would
:not have waged war, me thinks.

And if Germany had been fairly treated by the victors of WWI, rather
than robbed blind, and hadn't had such sensible options as Anshluss
foreclosed, she might have been led by statesmen rather than madmen.

I think the meth-amphetamines would have still done their paranoid
schizoprenic work on the minds of the people. Adolph was a very charismatic
man.

"Stuart Wilkes" wrote in message
om...
E. Barry Bruyea wrote in message
. ..
On 22 Oct 2003 02:44:52 -0700, (Stuart Wilkes)
wrote:


Indeed, the Western powers were concerned to keep the Baltic States
out of Soviet hands. However, in the Anglo-German negotiations of the
summer of 1939, the British offered to recognize Eastern Europe as a
German sphere of influence. Last time I checked, the Baltic States
are in Eastern Europe. So the Western powers were indeed resolved to
keep the Baltic States out of Soviet hands, in order to preserve them
for the Nazi variety.


What Anglo German negotiations ?

From March onwards (when Germany seized the remains of
Czechoslovakia) there was a deterioration of relations which made everbody
understand the inevitability of war

In April Germany denounced the Anglo German Naval Agreement

The Germans alsocomplained about the negotiations
Britain was pursuing with the USSR complaining that
Britain and the Soviet Union were trying to encircle
Germany.

They need not have feared since it was the Soviets who scuppered
any chance of an alliance to oppose Germany when Molotov
first sharply criticized the British suggestions of a defensive alliance
against Germany and Italy and then rejected a series of drafts in
negotiations
with the British and French governments and demanded guarantees for the
Baltic states, insurance against internal revolution, and the right to send
Red Army troops into Poland in the event of a German invasion.

These demands were clearly impossible to accept and were almost
certainly intended to end all such talks as the USSR was already
secretly negotiating with Germany.

It was of course Stalin who offered Germany a free hand in Western
Europe while the USSR would have a free hand in the east and
split Poland between them.


Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Stuart Wilkes" wrote in message
om...
"John Mullen" wrote in message
...

snip

We did not badly to win the air and sea battles with Nazi Germany.
Neither
was easy and both had costs attached. Of course we couldn't have won
overall
without the support of the USA and the USSR, both of which in their own
ways
hedged their bets until the decision to enter the war was forced upon
them.

Not by their choice. The Soviets had alliances with Czechoslovakia
and France since 1935, and offered Great Britain and France a full-up
Triple Alliance with all the trimmings on 17 April 1939. Too bad
Chamberlain refused to take it seriously, preferring to pursue
Anglo-German agreement.


Given that Stalin had

1) Reneged on his agreements with Czechoslovakia when that nation
asked the Soviets to intervene in 1938

False. The Czechoslovak government never made any request for Soviet
aid. The Czechoslovak government decided on their own that they would
accept the Munich dictate. In his memoirs, Benes maintains that the
Soviets were willing to go beyond the committments they had made,
should the Czechoslovak government desire. The Czechoslovak
government made no such request.

2) Just finished decimating the Red Army by killing three out of five Soviet
marshals, fifteen out of sixteen army commanders, sixty out of 67
corps commanders, and 136 out of 199 divisional commanders
and 36,761 officers.

Hm. One wonders how this purged Soviet Army managed to inflict over 3
times as many German KIA in the first seven weeks of Barbarossa as the
combined Franco-Anglo-Belgian-Dutch armies managed in the six-week
campaign in the West.

And the purges themselves had no impact on Western estimates of the
Soviet military. They derided it before the Purges, and the derided
it after the Purges. Tukhachevskii was discovered in the West to have
been a military genius only after he was safely dead.

3) Had just presided over the man made famine in the Ukraine

Its scarcely suprising that Soviet promises were viewed with
a degree of scepticism.


Of the two, that of the USSR was IMO the less honourable.

They had been excluded from the prewar European diplomacy, and their
alliance offers to the Western Allies refused. Once that was clear,
they looked after themselves. Nothing dishonorable about that.

The secret codicils to the Soviet-German non-aggression pact
were scarcely honorable,

With Chamberlain determined on Anglo-German agreement, it would have
been highly unwise for the Soviets to pass up the offer.

neither was the Soviet invasion
of the Baltic states and Finland,

It also would have been unwise for the Soviets to have let Germany
occupy the Baltic States.

unless you consider that
the Finnish hordes poised to sweep across the borders
of the USSR were a major threat to the Rodina.

Fact is Stalin was already secretly negotiating with Germany in 1938

And the British had been openly negotiating with Nazi Germany since
1935, concluding agreements that permitted German naval rearmament, as
well as selling Czechoslovakia out.

and thought he could cut a cosy deal with his buddy
Adolf and carve up Central Europe between them.

No sense letting "good old Neville" hand it all to Adolpf.

Oops

Got a better alternative for him?

I thought not.

Stuart Wilkes

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

A limited operation does not have to be minor, it just has to have well
defined limits.

Shucks, by that definition, the U.S. fought World War II as a limited
operation.

a) defeat Germany

b) defeat Japan

What limits could be better defined than those?


Don't be such an idiot.

The Allies fought to defeat Germany and Japan on a strategic level.

Japan fought a limited war in the South Pacific to simply exclude the Allies
from interfering with their supplies.

The South Pacific was a sideshow for Japan and all operations in the South
Pacific were limited and to support the main aim. China.

"Stuart Wilkes" wrote in message
m...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"Stuart Wilkes" wrote in message
om...
"John Mullen" wrote in message
...

snip

We did not badly to win the air and sea battles with Nazi Germany.
Neither
was easy and both had costs attached. Of course we couldn't have won
overall
without the support of the USA and the USSR, both of which in their
own
ways
hedged their bets until the decision to enter the war was forced
upon
them.

Not by their choice. The Soviets had alliances with Czechoslovakia
and France since 1935, and offered Great Britain and France a full-up
Triple Alliance with all the trimmings on 17 April 1939. Too bad
Chamberlain refused to take it seriously, preferring to pursue
Anglo-German agreement.


Given that Stalin had

1) Reneged on his agreements with Czechoslovakia when that nation
asked the Soviets to intervene in 1938

False. The Czechoslovak government never made any request for Soviet
aid. The Czechoslovak government decided on their own that they would
accept the Munich dictate. In his memoirs, Benes maintains that the
Soviets were willing to go beyond the committments they had made,
should the Czechoslovak government desire. The Czechoslovak
government made no such request.


This is incorrect, the Soviet government did not respond
to Benes when he appealed for help under the terms
of the 1935 treaty. The Soviets prevaricated knowing
all too well what the consequences would be.

2) Just finished decimating the Red Army by killing three out of five
Soviet
marshals, fifteen out of sixteen army commanders, sixty out of 67
corps commanders, and 136 out of 199 divisional commanders
and 36,761 officers.

Hm. One wonders how this purged Soviet Army managed to inflict over 3
times as many German KIA in the first seven weeks of Barbarossa as the
combined Franco-Anglo-Belgian-Dutch armies managed in the six-week
campaign in the West.


While losing ten times as many men

And the purges themselves had no impact on Western estimates of the
Soviet military. They derided it before the Purges, and the derided
it after the Purges. Tukhachevskii was discovered in the West to have
been a military genius only after he was safely dead.


The purges had clear and direct effects on the Soviet military
which was found to be inadequate to the task of defeating
mighty Finland

3) Had just presided over the man made famine in the Ukraine

Its scarcely suprising that Soviet promises were viewed with
a degree of scepticism.


Of the two, that of the USSR was IMO the less honourable.

They had been excluded from the prewar European diplomacy, and their
alliance offers to the Western Allies refused. Once that was clear,
they looked after themselves. Nothing dishonorable about that.

The secret codicils to the Soviet-German non-aggression pact
were scarcely honorable,

With Chamberlain determined on Anglo-German agreement, it would have
been highly unwise for the Soviets to pass up the offer.


Chamberlain was determined on peace, nothing more and
nothing less.

neither was the Soviet invasion
of the Baltic states and Finland,

It also would have been unwise for the Soviets to have let Germany
occupy the Baltic States.


That happened anyway dies to Stalis destruction
of the red army.

unless you consider that
the Finnish hordes poised to sweep across the borders
of the USSR were a major threat to the Rodina.

Fact is Stalin was already secretly negotiating with Germany in 1938

And the British had been openly negotiating with Nazi Germany since
1935, concluding agreements that permitted German naval rearmament, as
well as selling Czechoslovakia out.


Nations tend to negotiate openly with each other, its
called diplomacy I believe.

and thought he could cut a cosy deal with his buddy
Adolf and carve up Central Europe between them.

No sense letting "good old Neville" hand it all to Adolpf.


Neville didnt had Poland to Adolf, he declared
war insted, handing Poland to Adolf was Uncle Joe's
doing.

Oops

Got a better alternative for him?

Sure, stop selling the Nazis war materials would be a good start.
Hell the Russians supplied Germany with the fuel for Barbarossa.

Keith

"Stuart Wilkes" wrote in message
m...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"Stuart Wilkes" wrote in message
om...
"John Mullen" wrote in message
...

snip

We did not badly to win the air and sea battles with Nazi Germany.
Neither
was easy and both had costs attached. Of course we couldn't have won
overall
without the support of the USA and the USSR, both of which in their
own
ways
hedged their bets until the decision to enter the war was forced
upon
them.

Not by their choice. The Soviets had alliances with Czechoslovakia
and France since 1935, and offered Great Britain and France a full-up
Triple Alliance with all the trimmings on 17 April 1939. Too bad
Chamberlain refused to take it seriously, preferring to pursue
Anglo-German agreement.


Given that Stalin had

1) Reneged on his agreements with Czechoslovakia when that nation
asked the Soviets to intervene in 1938

False. The Czechoslovak government never made any request for Soviet
aid. The Czechoslovak government decided on their own that they would
accept the Munich dictate. In his memoirs, Benes maintains that the
Soviets were willing to go beyond the committments they had made,
should the Czechoslovak government desire. The Czechoslovak
government made no such request.


This is incorrect, the Soviet government did not respond
to Benes when he appealed for help under the terms
of the 1935 treaty. The Soviets prevaricated knowing
all too well what the consequences would be.

2) Just finished decimating the Red Army by killing three out of five
Soviet
marshals, fifteen out of sixteen army commanders, sixty out of 67
corps commanders, and 136 out of 199 divisional commanders
and 36,761 officers.

Hm. One wonders how this purged Soviet Army managed to inflict over 3
times as many German KIA in the first seven weeks of Barbarossa as the
combined Franco-Anglo-Belgian-Dutch armies managed in the six-week
campaign in the West.


While losing ten times as many men

And the purges themselves had no impact on Western estimates of the
Soviet military. They derided it before the Purges, and the derided
it after the Purges. Tukhachevskii was discovered in the West to have
been a military genius only after he was safely dead.


The purges had clear and direct effects on the Soviet military
which was found to be inadequate to the task of defeating
mighty Finland

3) Had just presided over the man made famine in the Ukraine

Its scarcely suprising that Soviet promises were viewed with
a degree of scepticism.


Of the two, that of the USSR was IMO the less honourable.

They had been excluded from the prewar European diplomacy, and their
alliance offers to the Western Allies refused. Once that was clear,
they looked after themselves. Nothing dishonorable about that.

The secret codicils to the Soviet-German non-aggression pact
were scarcely honorable,

With Chamberlain determined on Anglo-German agreement, it would have
been highly unwise for the Soviets to pass up the offer.


Chamberlain was determined on peace, nothing more and
nothing less.

neither was the Soviet invasion
of the Baltic states and Finland,

It also would have been unwise for the Soviets to have let Germany
occupy the Baltic States.


That happened anyway dies to Stalis destruction
of the red army.

unless you consider that
the Finnish hordes poised to sweep across the borders
of the USSR were a major threat to the Rodina.

Fact is Stalin was already secretly negotiating with Germany in 1938

And the British had been openly negotiating with Nazi Germany since
1935, concluding agreements that permitted German naval rearmament, as
well as selling Czechoslovakia out.


Nations tend to negotiate openly with each other, its
called diplomacy I believe.

and thought he could cut a cosy deal with his buddy
Adolf and carve up Central Europe between them.

No sense letting "good old Neville" hand it all to Adolpf.


Neville didnt had Poland to Adolf, he declared
war insted, handing Poland to Adolf was Uncle Joe's
doing.

Oops

Got a better alternative for him?

Sure, stop selling the Nazis war materials would be a good start.
Hell the Russians supplied Germany with the fuel for Barbarossa.

Keith

"Andy Spark" wrote in message
...

No the RAF was more than capable of holding out against the Luftwaffe.
The germans had the wrong aircraft the wrong tactics and well, just
about everything. -Even had they worked out what the strange looking
towers round the south coast were for and demolished them, enabling
them to knock out the RAF's frontline airfields, all the RAF would have
had to do was to pull their fighters back to the North of London (out
of the limited range of the german bombers) and continue sniping away.
-The RAF ended the Battle of Britain materially stronger than when it
started. -Of course they enjoyed the advantage of being able to recover
their downed pilots, and a large proportion of even the most badly
damaged aircraft,

It is interesting to look at the number of available fighter pilots for
fighter command throughout the BoB and note that it never declined below the
1259 available in the week ending July 6, it is also interesting to note
that the number of 'immediately available' single engined fighters in
storage units never dropped below 191.

Not minimising the importance of the battle, nor the bravery of the pilots,
but the BoB was not the 'near run thing' that it is frequently portrayed as.