OT-Killing Pop-ups as a webmaster

In article , Jeff wrote:

Been doing this since 1997, I dont bother with that validate stuff, I
dont think
its very accurate.
I just check pages with different browsers and if they load fine I am
happy.

which means nothing wrt the HTML being correct.

You've been doing this since '97 and you still don't know what
valid HTML is?

--
Bob Noel

Jay.. I am also learning HTML and MS FrontPage...

Well, Bill, despite Peter's (and others) elitist attitudes toward building a
web page, this ain't rocket science. Microsoft FrontPage -- for all of its
quirks -- is head and shoulders above any other web editor I've tried, for
ease of use.

Sure, you can go with Dreamweaver for more "power" -- if you've got a few
weeks of your life to devote to something as stupid as learning a new
program. Nowadays, with PCs as powerful as mainframes once were, there is
simply no reason for a program to be anything but naked-butt simple to use.
If it's NOT, that's indicative of poor programming design, IMHO.

If you're used to Microsoft Word -- and who isn't nowadays? -- FrontPage is
very familiar feeling. Much of the data is interchangeable, actually, and
you can share stuff from one program to the other. This really smoothes the
learning curve, and lets you start producing almost immediately.

which "Theme/Style" did you use to create the left menu with the hover
button added...

My menu style (on the left side of my page) is called "A graphical style
based on the Network theme" -- whatever THAT means. I picked it cuz
everyone says it looks nice! :-)

I write off this whole debate over HTML editors and technique as nothing
more than the "DOS vs Windows" debate, redux. Ten (or was it 15 now?)
years ago, I was the dinosaur, decrying the "stupid PC users who were using
the new 'Windows' as a crutch". I could be heard grumbling stuff like
"Why don't these idiots learn DOS, instead of forcing this stupid GUI down
our throats?"

Well, I learned that you've gotta keep moving with the technology. Dig
your heels in on something like this, and you'll end up being an expert in
Borland Paradox database design, trapped in a Microsoft Access world.

I know, cuz I AM one of *those*, and it sucks... :-(

And, by the way, FWIW I have deleted all that "table" HTML crap at the
bottom of the opening page. I have no idea what it was, or how it got
there -- nor do I care. It apparently had no effect on performance, which,
in the end, is all that matters.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:41:18 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

Jay.. I am also learning HTML and MS FrontPage...

Well, Bill, despite Peter's (and others) elitist attitudes toward building a

this has nothing to do with elitism. Your point of view is simple
ingnorance.

If you're used to Microsoft Word -- and who isn't nowadays? -- FrontPage is
very familiar feeling. Much of the data is interchangeable, actually, and
you can share stuff from one program to the other. This really smoothes the
learning curve, and lets you start producing almost immediately.

.... and produces another one producing more or less crap - and he is proud
of it.

which "Theme/Style" did you use to create the left menu with the hover
button added...

My menu style (on the left side of my page) is called "A graphical style
based on the Network theme" -- whatever THAT means. I picked it cuz
everyone says it looks nice! :-)

yeah. tried to use it without JS? :-)

I write off this whole debate over HTML editors and technique as nothing
more than the "DOS vs Windows" debate, redux. Ten (or was it 15 now?)

nope. there is a language with *rules* (you know, such things like an ADIZ
in aviation). Frontpage ignores most of them.

And, by the way, FWIW I have deleted all that "table" HTML crap at the
bottom of the opening page. I have no idea what it was, or how it got
there -- nor do I care.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

this describes your attitude pretty good (at least regarding your website;
even when you was told why etc.)

It apparently had no effect on performance, which,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
in the end, is all that matters.

ah! and how will you know?

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

BTIZ wrote:
more OT..

Jay.. I am also learning HTML and MS FrontPage...

This is such a common topic that I hestiate to respond to it,
particularly because it's so OT, but friends don't let friends use
FrontPage. :-)

May I suggest that you (and Jay, and the remainder of the bipedal world
for that matter) NOT waste your time with FrontPage? It creates
HORRIBLE (meaning, non-standards-compliant) HTML and some of the most
annoying website designs I've ever seen. One particular annoyance is
the use of JAVA for simple menu buttons (!) Uh, talk about an improper
use of the technology.

Some recommendations:

1) Go get a copy of Dreamweaver. You owe it to yourself AND the people
who will visit your site.

http://www.macromedia.com/software/dreamweaver/

It creates near PERFECT HTML and has a really nice WYSIWYG editor.
Incidentally, you don't NEED Dreamweaver or FrontPage to create a
website...they only eliminate the need to code raw HTML for the vast
majority of sites. And, when you finally discover the wonders of
standards-compliant CSS, Dreamweaver will significantly simplify
creation of CSS styles.

2) Check out the following site, which contains a lot of really good
(and strangely funny) advice on how to create a user-friendly site that
emphasizes content and compatability over flashiness and gimicktry.

http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/

For what it's worth, my site was created with Dreamweaver and uses no
flash, java, javascript or any other client-side dependent crap, and the
first line in almost every email I get that references the site is "hey,
you have a really nice site".

And no, I'm not being vain...only providing a personal example of
what's possible with what I'll choose to call a "minimalist, yet
technically competant" approach to website design.

Oh, one other thing. STOP using IE. Go grab the latest Mozilla or
Firebird browsers. They both have pop-up ad blocking built in.

Safe flying,

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

Jay Honeck wrote:

Well, something worked. Within an hour I had acquired a "pop-up" ad that
now shows up every time I open my website. (I assume you ALL see this,
right?) It appears to be "keying" on the "hotels" meta tag? (See it -- and
hopefully our site -- at www.AlexisParkInn.com )

It doesn't happen for me.

George Patterson
They say nothing's certain except death and taxes. The thing is, death
doesn't get worse every time Congress goes into session.

... and produces another one producing more or less crap - and he is proud
of it.

Well, Martin -- I speak with hundreds of hotel guests, most (like, 99.9999%)
of whom know nothing about HTML, or any of the so-called HTML "standards" to
which you (and others) refer.

The number one thing I hear about our website is that it is so much easier
to navigate and is actually chock-full of real information about the hotel
than most commercial sites. Too many sites are nothing but "fluff", and
cool graphics. I have tried to avoid that, in favor of stuff that potential
hotel guests might actually be interested in seeing.

I write off this whole debate over HTML editors and technique as nothing
more than the "DOS vs Windows" debate, redux. Ten (or was it 15 now?)

nope. there is a language with *rules* (you know, such things like an ADIZ
in aviation). Frontpage ignores most of them.

Thanks for reinforcing my point. You, like we former DOS-heads once did,
seem to view these "rules" as inviolate and unbreakable. This, my friend,
will be your ultimate downfall.

DOS had rules, too. Windows first worked within them, then ignored them and
made new ones.

Where is DOS now?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message


this has nothing to do with elitism. Your point of view is simple
ingnorance.

No. Jay's point of view is pragmatic. He's a small business owner trying
to advertise his hotel with a minimum of cost using the tools at his
disposal. If he wanted to hire a Siegelgale or one of us professional
developers, I'm sure he'd get validated HTML. As it is, his point of view
is quite correct: If it works, it's good enough. If he's not getting any
complaints from users about the site not loading, why bother fixing what
isn't broken?

The fact that users may not be able to view the site and will not complain
about doesn't detract from his desire to produce a web page using simple
tools.

this describes your attitude pretty good (at least regarding your
website; even when you was told why etc.)

And this demonstrates your elitist attitude that Jay was complaining about.
He's made it clear that he's not a developer and he doesn't need to be one.
If one of you professional, validating web developers care to donate your
time to advise him of proper tagging, I'm sure he'd be open to the idea...

It apparently had no effect on performance, which,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
in the end, is all that matters.

ah! and how will you know?

How do you know what testing he's done?

Damn. Give the boy a break. He's using low-end tools to minimize costs to
develop a low-profile brochure-ware site. It's not like he's building a
financial management system.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
_______________

In article , Jeff wrote:

what do you want on your machine?
nutscrape ?
just tell nutscrape to be the default browser in its preferences.

That and Mozilla. Some URL's still attempt to load IE before I stop it.

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:42:41 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

... and produces another one producing more or less crap - and he is proud
of it.

Well, Martin -- I speak with hundreds of hotel guests, most (like, 99.9999%)
of whom know nothing about HTML, or any of the so-called HTML "standards" to
which you (and others) refer.


millions of flies can't be wrong! folks! eat ****!

The number one thing I hear about our website is that it is so much easier
to navigate and is actually chock-full of real information about the hotel
than most commercial sites. Too many sites are nothing but "fluff", and

compared to so many home-made websites from many (esp Americans) I come by
and that are really a pain in the ass yours is really rather informative.
But you are pointed to the correct ways of how things are done and you
simply ignore them.

nope. there is a language with *rules* (you know, such things like an ADIZ
in aviation). Frontpage ignores most of them.

Thanks for reinforcing my point. You, like we former DOS-heads once did,
seem to view these "rules" as inviolate and unbreakable. This, my friend,
will be your ultimate downfall.

HTML is standardised. You are referring to proprietaire products.

DOS had rules, too. Windows first worked within them, then ignored them and
made new ones.

Where is DOS now?

you compare one Microsoft crap with another Microsoft crap. Microsoft is
NOT standard (or compare Mac OS 8 with Mac OS 9, also non standard).
Hello!!!! This would be the same as when everyone would have Cessna, Piper
or Lycoming as reference in aviation (and this would be ridiculous).

HTML is standardised (as many other things are) and M$ is simply ignoring
them (at best). They find people like you finding that OK.

Once again: eat ****, because million of flies can't be wrong.

#m

--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:49:51 GMT, John T wrote:

this has nothing to do with elitism. Your point of view is simple
ingnorance.

No. Jay's point of view is pragmatic. He's a small business owner trying
to advertise his hotel with a minimum of cost using the tools at his
disposal. If he wanted to hire a Siegelgale or one of us professional
developers, I'm sure he'd get validated HTML. As it is, his point of view
is quite correct: If it works, it's good enough. If he's not getting any
complaints from users about the site not loading, why bother fixing what
isn't broken?

He probably will never hear from those.

The fact that users may not be able to view the site and will not complain
about doesn't detract from his desire to produce a web page using simple
tools.

this describes your attitude pretty good (at least regarding your
website; even when you was told why etc.)

And this demonstrates your elitist attitude that Jay was complaining about.
He's made it clear that he's not a developer and he doesn't need to be one.
If one of you professional, validating web developers care to donate your
time to advise him of proper tagging, I'm sure he'd be open to the idea...

I am not a developer (and I am ashamed that my company website is crap; but
I know that it is crap,but in the background I am working on letting it
rebuilt by professionals), but I know what has to be done. And I donate my
time and tell him _*NOW*_.


It apparently had no effect on performance, which,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
in the end, is all that matters.

ah! and how will you know?

How do you know what testing he's done?

Well, when your experience level is on the basis of a user (asking for help
on pop-ups that appear by surfing his own website) then I don't expect him
knowing how to test his website on a lousy modem connection.

Damn. Give the boy a break. He's using low-end tools to minimize costs to
develop a low-profile brochure-ware site. It's not like he's building a
financial management system.

This sounds like "Hey folks, come to my 1st class hotel with suites, I
offer better service than all the chains, but - uh, sorry - marketing is
done by myself. I hardly know what I do on the website, but it somehow
works."
Not using JS for navigation? Hey, it is _so_ cool and nobody complained
except 1 or 2 wakkos, but they are so into 'standards' ...


Hey, I know how to hold a screwdriver. May I do your annual on your plane?

Sorry for sounding harsh ...

#m

--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml