Leading Turns With Rudder

The rudder should only be used to combat the effects of adverse yaw when
the ailerons are applied to make the glider roll and turn. For most types
of glider the stick and the rudder should be applied at the same time, but
when the required angle of bank is reached the stick should be centralised
just before most of the rudder is taken off. This however rather depends
on the type of glider being flown; for some very big span gliders and
vintage types it can pay to lead just slightly with the rudder, but always
remember that the ailerons are the primary roll controls. I get enough
students who put gliders into a turn with a big bootful of rudder without
using the stick at all, and then think that because the glider is now
turning, due to the secondary effect of yaw, they must have used the
ailerons. This is of course a good receipe for spinning in!

Derek Copeland
(UK Instructor)


At 16:53 21 July 2008, sisu1a wrote:
Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message
...
On Jul 21, 12:11 pm, PMSC Member wrote:
On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. [snip]

If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked.

End of story.

And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets.

Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's
talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents
and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not
really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really
works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions
students to developing a feel for flying these gliders.

Darryl


I teach in a ASK21 and previously G103. Both exhibit adverse yaw very
clearly.
The only way to "coordinate" the turn in one of these is to begin with a
touch of rudder, a tenth of a second before the aileron. Well, actually not
quantitated but just to illustrate the idea. The nose must begin to turn
(let's say) left as the left aileron is applied. If the student is a bit
late on the rudder, the turn will just look and feel a bit "sloppy".

So, I say "just start the rudder first, then bring in the aileron, to make
the nose move in proportion to the stick." This will keep the string
centered. Most students are late on the rudder, so this gets them "caught
up".

This is not necessary on our club single place gliders, but by then, the
students know how to coordinate a turn by how it looks and feels.


Hartley Falbaum
CFIG, Master SSA XC CFIG USA

On Jul 21, 3:27 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 21, 12:11 pm, PMSC Member wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. [snip]

If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked.

End of story.

And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets.

Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's
talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents
and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not
really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really
works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions
students to developing a feel for flying these gliders.

Darryl


Let's not wander too far afield and make assumptions about what a
great guy this CFIG might otherwise be. We've been told he teaches
*student pilots* "that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing
you do is feed in rudder."

We all know there are certain gliders that, under certain
circumstances, are best flown with leading rudder. Typically, we're
talking about a glass ship with heavy wings (esp. with water) and
thermal entry at thermaling speed, at altitude.

Not trainers.

Not students.

Not if the spoilers are open.

Not in the pattern.

Not at low agl altitude under any circumstance.


Is is REALLY necessary to review the stats on stall/spin accidents,
AGAIN?

I have never in 20 odd years met an instructor that teaches students
this way, and have great difficulty believing this is as common as you
suggest.

This doesn't worry you? You don't understand the problem. And you
aren't going to figure it out reading usenet :-). See a good CFIG.

The idea that any CFIG would teach this way frankly astounds me. I
regard it as malpractice of the very worst sort. The fact that various
people on this group report this as a not uncommon practice troubles
me. To the extent that this is true, it supports the allegation that
many pilots simply don't have the knowledge to fly safely.

On Jul 21, 12:53*pm, sisu1a wrote:
Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of *other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

When introducing yaw control, I teach "lead with the rudder" slightly.
This is done because
most people(almost all) are better with their hand than their feet.
This is done while pointing out that yaw and roll should start
together to create an effective turn entry. This is done as timing
only and is NOT allowed to create the impression that the rudder turns
the glider. Within a very few flights this timing has been learned and
"lead with the rudder" does not come up again unless the student has
coordination trouble.
Skidding truns are not tolerated.
I also teach "lead with the stick" on the exit for the same reason.
I also teach "lead with the rudder" on turn stall and incipient spin
recoveries.
Let the flames begin.
UH

On Jul 21, 9:53*am, sisu1a wrote:
Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of *other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

I am a CFIG at a club that uses G103 for primary instruction. The
amount of rudder application required in a turn is not cut and dry.
There are many variables...speed, amount of aileron applied and how
fast it is applied. It is also not a step 1, step 2 affair. It all
comes down to a "balance of forces" which equals an "aircraft flown in
trim". The fallback that I encourage students to use is simultaneous
application of rudder with the stick input. It just so happens that
in the G103, half rudder with half stick application and full rudder
with full aileron stick input works very well at thermalling speeds
and the yaw string will hardly move. Of course, the rudder must be
returned to nearly neutral when the stick is returned to neutral.
Students frequently forget that part.

Randy

On Jul 21, 1:12*pm, PMSC Member wrote:
On Jul 21, 3:27 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Jul 21, 12:11 pm, PMSC Member wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. [snip]

If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked.

End of story.

And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets.

Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's
talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents
and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not
really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really
works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions
students to developing a feel for flying these gliders.

Darryl

Let's not wander too far afield and make assumptions about what a
great guy this CFIG might otherwise be. *We've been told he teaches
*student pilots* "that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing
you do is feed in rudder."

We all know there are certain gliders that, under certain
circumstances, are best flown with leading rudder. *Typically, we're
talking about a glass ship with heavy wings (esp. with water) and
thermal entry at thermaling speed, at altitude.

Not trainers.

Not students.

Not if the spoilers are open.

Not in the pattern.

Not at low agl altitude under any circumstance.

Is is REALLY necessary to review the stats on stall/spin accidents,
AGAIN?

I have never in 20 odd years met an instructor that teaches students
this way, and have great difficulty believing this is as common as you
suggest.

This doesn't worry you? *You don't understand the problem. *And you
aren't going to figure it out reading usenet :-). *See a good CFIG.

The idea that any CFIG would teach this way frankly astounds me. *I
regard it as malpractice of the very worst sort. The fact that various
people on this group report this as a not uncommon practice troubles
me. *To the extent that this is true, it supports the allegation that
many pilots simply don't have the knowledge to fly safely.

Look, I was replying to you wandering afield and assuming the guy is
clueless and ought to have his ticked yanked. He could be the worse
instructor around, he might be the best. The point is just picking on
one statement does not prove anything. I laid out what sort of
discussion/other issues I'd expect a CFIG to raise. It is probably
useless to try to discuss somebody's professional teaching skills by
saying "he says X". I kind of doubt the discussion starts and ends
there with no more conversation with the student. What else does he
say? What caveats does he place on this? What does he demonstrate to
students, what practical lesson approach and drills does he have
students do to improve their feel for turn coordination, what is his
approach to incipient spin and spin training, etc. Oops we don't know
any of that but hell lets take away the guys ticket since somebody
says he says something.

Spouting off your opinion on usenet and then denegrating any opinions
on usenet is kind of amusing.

Darryl
(who leads with rudder frequently)

On Jul 21, 9:53*am, sisu1a wrote:
. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

Well lots have jumped in with feet first but I was taught, and used to
teach, stick and rudder together.

I have to agree though with those that say do what ever it takes to
make the glider do what you want it to. For student pilots that's
usually to keep the yaw string centered entering, exiting, and while
established in, a turn.

I have flown lots of glider types but most of my experience is in
single place Schleichers. I never lead with rudder to roll my 28, nor
did I with my 19. (except when flying rudder only when the hands were
busy with something else)

I received my initial glider training in UK but first soloed in US.

Andy (not a brand name)

On Jul 21, 5:12 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 21, 1:12 pm, PMSC Member wrote:



On Jul 21, 3:27 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:11 pm, PMSC Member wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. [snip]

If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked.

End of story.

And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets.

Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's
talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents
and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not
really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really
works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions
students to developing a feel for flying these gliders.

Darryl

Let's not wander too far afield and make assumptions about what a
great guy this CFIG might otherwise be. We've been told he teaches
*student pilots* "that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing
you do is feed in rudder."

We all know there are certain gliders that, under certain
circumstances, are best flown with leading rudder. Typically, we're
talking about a glass ship with heavy wings (esp. with water) and
thermal entry at thermaling speed, at altitude.

Not trainers.

Not students.

Not if the spoilers are open.

Not in the pattern.

Not at low agl altitude under any circumstance.

Is is REALLY necessary to review the stats on stall/spin accidents,
AGAIN?

I have never in 20 odd years met an instructor that teaches students
this way, and have great difficulty believing this is as common as you
suggest.

This doesn't worry you? You don't understand the problem. And you
aren't going to figure it out reading usenet :-). See a good CFIG.

The idea that any CFIG would teach this way frankly astounds me. I
regard it as malpractice of the very worst sort. The fact that various
people on this group report this as a not uncommon practice troubles
me. To the extent that this is true, it supports the allegation that
many pilots simply don't have the knowledge to fly safely.

Look, I was replying to you wandering afield and assuming the guy is
clueless and ought to have his ticked yanked. He could be the worse
instructor around, he might be the best. The point is just picking on
one statement does not prove anything. I laid out what sort of
discussion/other issues I'd expect a CFIG to raise. It is probably
useless to try to discuss somebody's professional teaching skills by
saying "he says X". I kind of doubt the discussion starts and ends
there with no more conversation with the student. What else does he
say? What caveats does he place on this? What does he demonstrate to
students, what practical lesson approach and drills does he have
students do to improve their feel for turn coordination, what is his
approach to incipient spin and spin training, etc. Oops we don't know
any of that but hell lets take away the guys ticket since somebody
says he says something.

Spouting off your opinion on usenet and then denegrating any opinions
on usenet is kind of amusing.

Darryl
(who leads with rudder frequently)

Well I see you have this completely figured out. You certainly read a
lot more into this exchange than I (or anyone else) wrote, so this is
the end of it for me. Good luck & good soaring to you.

I feel compelled at this point to add that this guy does not promote
stomping the rudder or other outwardly unsafe flying habits and is
absolutely fanatical about keeping the string straight, to the point
of obnoxiousness. He would not accept my explanation of mildly
slipping during thermaling ala' Holighaus/Johnson on a flight last
year, outright rejecting it on principal (he was sure I read the
article wrong or remembered it incorrectly).

I also want to add that my concern is geared toward what ab-initio
students should or should not be taught, as it is very hard to unlearn
something, no matter how wrong. As far as I understand the human
brain, it will most likely revert to these early lessons when/if a
'situation' arises and stress levels are very high.

I certainly don't think he should have his ticket yanked by any means,
I just have my own reservations about the soundness of *possibly*
instilling reflexes into people that can potentially be dangerous if
reverted to at an inopportune moment. This forum seems like a good
place for this discussion, to see how others more qualified than I
weigh in on the subject before making it a campaign and I thank
everyone thus far for their thoughtful responses.

-Paul

On Jul 21, 5:10 pm, wrote:
On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:



Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

When introducing yaw control, I teach "lead with the rudder" slightly.
This is done because
most people(almost all) are better with their hand than their feet.
This is done while pointing out that yaw and roll should start
together to create an effective turn entry. This is done as timing
only and is NOT allowed to create the impression that the rudder turns
the glider. Within a very few flights this timing has been learned and
"lead with the rudder" does not come up again unless the student has
coordination trouble.
Skidding truns are not tolerated.
I also teach "lead with the stick" on the exit for the same reason.
I also teach "lead with the rudder" on turn stall and incipient spin
recoveries.
Let the flames begin.
UH

That's all pretty sensible and defensible compared to what was
described by the OP. No flames from me.