A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Leading Turns With Rudder



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old July 23rd 08, 10:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Z Goudie[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 35
Default Leading Turns With Rudder

I used to briefly get absolute beginners to turn using aileron with their
feet off the pedals while I surruptitiously did the ruddery bits and then,
once they'd grasped the fact that banking was the reason the glider
turned, get them to use both together.

Teaching rudder first to ab initios is tantamount to a criminal offence in
my opinion.
  #42  
Old July 23rd 08, 01:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Cats
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 164
Default Leading Turns With Rudder

On Jul 23, 10:56*am, Z Goudie wrote:
I used to briefly get absolute beginners to turn using aileron with their
feet off the pedals while I surruptitiously did the ruddery bits and then,
once they'd grasped the fact that banking was the reason the glider
turned, get them to use both together.


There was nothing secret about the back seat chap working the rudders
while I did the stick on my first flight.


Teaching rudder first to ab initios is tantamount to a criminal offence in
my opinion.

  #43  
Old July 23rd 08, 01:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 174
Default Leading Turns With Rudder

For what it is worth - we teach sequentially (in South Africa) the primary effects of controls.

So - for ab-initios it is -
First control - stick forward and back for speed control. Instructor worries about all the rest (Aileron, airbrakes and
rudder). Student ignores string, and direction.
Once bloggs has mastered that the primary effect of the elevators is to control speed, we move on to ailerons
Second control - learn to turn the aircraft with aileron - instructor now only controlling rudder and airbrakes.
Student wories about speed and learns to control direction. Stringf stays where it should be because the instructor is
doint it. Once the student has this one sorted we let him / her put feet on rudders and start teaching co-ordination.
Once that is pretty well sorted the airbrakes are an easy logical next step.
Then we start on permutations like slips and spins and all those other complications.

Works pretty well - when student gets confused about "what does this control do?" - primacy takes over and they tend to
do appropriate things more often.

In my opinion - Anyone who teaches by rote and/or a method that will induce unco-ordinated turns as the primary memory
is dangerous.

For what it is worth I learned this way on a Bergfalke 2/55 - in the gliding encyclopaedia, the definition of "adverse
yaw" says - refer to "Bergfalke". It is notoriously under ruddered and hard to co-ordinate. I certainly learned to use
the rudder, and on almost every conversion since have found myself having to back off on the rudder. But it is
relatively instinctive to apply the - "feet make the string straight" rule. Student learns to make appropriate control
inputs to balance the aircraft, not some set of rules. That brings images of the Prussian officer in those magnificent
men in their flying machines to mind...

Z Goudie wrote:
I used to briefly get absolute beginners to turn using aileron with their
feet off the pedals while I surruptitiously did the ruddery bits and then,
once they'd grasped the fact that banking was the reason the glider
turned, get them to use both together.

Teaching rudder first to ab initios is tantamount to a criminal offence in
my opinion.

  #44  
Old July 23rd 08, 01:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jim Beckman[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 186
Default Leading Turns With Rudder

At 20:16 22 July 2008, Brian wrote:

I find the instructing to "lead with the rudder" in many gliders is
just anticiping the adverse yaw and produces a more coordinated turn,
especially with new students.


My initial reaction to this thread that make an iron-clad
rule to "always lead with the rudder" wasn't very bright.
I agree with the folks who have said - do whatever it
takes to keep the turn coordinated. And of course this
is going to vary from glider to glider. Each type is different.

Brian makes another good point here, though, when it
comes to instructing (I'm not an instructor, and have no
desire to be one - I couldn't take the excitement). Each
student is different, so you do whatever it takes to get
the message across. They'll figure it out eventually.

Jim Beckman



  #45  
Old July 23rd 08, 01:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Derek Copeland
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default Leading Turns With Rudder

On the other hand, I know plenty of pilots who fly perfectly coordinated
turns, but who are absolutely cr@p cross-country and competition pilots.

Del Copeland

At 07:26 23 July 2008, Jim White wrote:
Nonsense...if you don't fly the glider efficiently you won't climb or
glide well and you certainly won't win. Accurate flying is fundamental

to
XC speed.

At 06:11 23 July 2008, Derek Copeland wrote:

Jim, what's this got to do with the argument? A BGA National Coach said

of
one top UK competition glider pilot "The only time the slip ball is

ever
in the middle is as it crashes from one side to the other!" Top
competition pilots are very good at knowing WHERE to fly to find the

best
lift and do not necessarily have to have perfect handling skills.

Del Copeland


  #46  
Old July 23rd 08, 02:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,565
Default Leading Turns With Rudder

On Jul 23, 5:13*am, Bruce wrote:
For what it is worth - we teach sequentially (in South Africa) the primary effects of controls.


I don't know if what you wrote is actually what you teach, but what
you wrote does not describe the primary effects of the controls, at
least not as I was taught.

Elevator - primary effect pitch attitude change, secondary effect
speed change
Aileron - primary effect roll attitude change, secondary effect
adverse yaw
Rudder - primary effect yaw attitude change, secondary effect roll

Andy
  #47  
Old July 23rd 08, 02:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Don Johnstone[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 50
Default Leading Turns With Rudder

Jim, we are not talking about cross country flying but about entering,
maintaining and exiting a turn as smoothly as possible. With 10000
launches 99% from a winch I would suggest that my "scratching"
credentials are pretty good. If you can thermal away a T31 or any other
glider come to that, from 500ft on a regular basis you have to be
efficient. Most cross countrys start from a aerotow into the moronosphere.
Of course competition pilots have to fly accurately, or fit a turbo, but
they are not necessarily the best low down scratching pilots. Just because
80% of the pilots in the UK are not competition pilots dones not make them
any less skilled, and to suggest otherwise is an insult.

At 07:26 23 July 2008, Jim White wrote:
Nonsense...if you don't fly the glider efficiently you won't climb or
glide well and you certainly won't win. Accurate flying is fundamental

to
XC speed.

btw Don, the W in ASW is Waibel. duh

At 06:11 23 July 2008, Derek Copeland wrote:

Jim, what's this got to do with argument? A BGA National Coach said of
one top UK competition glider pilot "The only time the slip ball is

ever
in the middle is as it crashes from one side to the other!" Top
competition pilots are very good at knowing WHERE to fly to find the

best
lift and do not necessarily have to have perfect handling skills.

Del Copeland


  #48  
Old July 23rd 08, 02:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Don Johnstone[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 50
Default Leading Turns With Rudder

At 13:17 23 July 2008, Andy wrote:
On Jul 23, 5:13=A0am, Bruce wrote:
For what it is worth - we teach sequentially (in South Africa) the

primar=
y effects of controls.

I don't know if what you wrote is actually what you teach, but what
you wrote does not describe the primary effects of the controls, at
least not as I was taught.

Elevator - primary effect pitch attitude change, secondary effect
speed change
Aileron - primary effect roll attitude change, secondary effect
adverse yaw
Rudder - primary effect yaw attitude change, secondary effect roll

Andy


The primary effect of elevator is to change the pitch attitude. There is
no true secondary effect.
The primary effect of aileron is roll, the secondary effect is yaw IN THE
DIRECTION OF THE AILERON APPLICATION, resulting in a spiral dive. In other
words if you keep aileron applied to the right the aircraft will roll right
and then yaw right. Adverse yaw is not the secondary effect. Any adverse
yaw present with the application of the aileron will be cancelled out when
the glider slips to the right.
Rudder is correct. The result is a spiral dive.
  #49  
Old July 23rd 08, 02:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
HL Falbaum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 133
Default Leading Turns With Rudder


"sisu1a" wrote in message
...
On Jul 22, 4:44 am, wrote:
On Jul 21, 9:08 pm, sisu1a wrote:



I feel compelled at this point to add that this guy does not promote
stomping the rudder or other outwardly unsafe flying habits and is
absolutely fanatical about keeping the string straight, to the point
of obnoxiousness. He would not accept my explanation of mildly
slipping during thermaling ala' Holighaus/Johnson on a flight last
year, outright rejecting it on principal (he was sure I read the
article wrong or remembered it incorrectly).


I also want to add that my concern is geared toward what ab-initio
students should or should not be taught, as it is very hard to unlearn
something, no matter how wrong. As far as I understand the human
brain, it will most likely revert to these early lessons when/if a
'situation' arises and stress levels are very high.


I certainly don't think he should have his ticket yanked by any means,
I just have my own reservations about the soundness of *possibly*
instilling reflexes into people that can potentially be dangerous if
reverted to at an inopportune moment. This forum seems like a good
place for this discussion, to see how others more qualified than I
weigh in on the subject before making it a campaign and I thank
everyone thus far for their thoughtful responses.


-Paul


Paul -- I can't reconcile these statements and your OP. How does one
teach applying rudder "first, as it's own control movement" and yet be
absolutely fanatical about keeping the yaw string centered?



Well, it makes instruction with him about as much fun as it sounds
(assuming your not a hapless student that doesn't know better and
would never stand up to his authority which BTW is very authoritative,
complete w/yelling tendencies but I digress...). It should be noted
that he is using a 2-33 (our other trainer is an L-13 Blanik, which he
is convinced it is awful for instruction compared to the wonderful
2-33...) to push this technique, which is not exactly snappy in ANY
responses so I doubt the string is getting too far in most of the
time. 95% of the instruction he does is with newbies who won't talk
back, so your point is probably never brought up (the rest of the
folks just grit their teeth, bite their tongue and finish their BFR
ASAP).
Recapping, my real concern of this does not come from how the 2-33
specifically likes/dislikes it. My concern comes from building this
technique by rote as a reflex in students because it translates poorly
to most other gliders, and seems like it could potentially lead to
disaster down the road, from my limited perspective. Honest, this
stuff actually gets written on a board and drilled into students
heads, I'm not making this up.

-Paul
(trying to keep descriptions as generic as possible because I DON'T
want to call him out)



Well, Paul---
Have you personally been trained by this instructor, or is this second hand
"distilled" information.
Perhaps the full instruction is more complete---or maybe not.

The art of instruction is in learning the essence of the thing to be
taught, then breaking it down into steps so it can be taught. What is
actually being taught is (or should be), coordinated turns. This does not
mean apply the same rudder and aileron movement at the same time, or the
same control pressures at the same time. It means do what it takes to get
the effect desired-i.e. crisp, string centered, constant airspeed turn. How
that is to be done varies from aircraft to aircraft and from airspeed to
other airspeed. If the student learns first what a coordinated turn is and
is not, then everything else falls into place, and the law of primacy will
prevail in a pinch.

Hartley Falbaum USA


  #50  
Old July 23rd 08, 03:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,096
Default Leading Turns With Rudder

Jim White wrote:
Nonsense...if you don't fly the glider efficiently you won't climb or
glide well and you certainly won't win. Accurate flying is fundamental to
XC speed.


My experience with losing in contests is being the the right place at
the right time is fundamental to XC speed. I never wished I'd flown more
efficiently! I'm guessing you haven't flown in many contests or talked
to the winners enough. Flying the glider well is about safety, not going
fast.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Coordinated turns without rudder, and autopilots Mxsmanic Piloting 188 June 1st 07 07:09 PM
Question: Standard rate turns, constant rate turns, and airspeed Robert Barker Piloting 5 April 15th 07 04:47 PM
Is rudder required for coordinated turns? Mxsmanic Piloting 41 September 24th 06 06:40 PM
Efis and other leading technology Mark Instrument Flight Rules 13 January 26th 05 10:16 PM
leading edge flaps Arquebus257WeaMag Military Aviation 105 January 14th 04 05:11 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.