Leading Turns With Rudder

Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

On Jul 21, 9:53*am, sisu1a wrote:
Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of *other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

I was taught to lead with the rudder as well - and by a very good
CFIG. I believe the idea is: 1) to build up a little angular momentum
into the turn, 2) to use differential tip speeds to pick up the
outside wing with less adverse yaw and, 3) to overcome any tendency
for students to try to turn only with the stick. On many very long-
winged gliders, you really can't set the turn up properly with out
slewing the aircraft to use the differential tip speeds to help pick
the wing up. If you use too much aileron to initiate the turn the
adverse yaw makes a mess of things.

Obviously kicking the rudder hard at stall can have a bad effect and
most pilots I know believe that a steady state turn with a little slip
is optimal because the fuselage produces a little lift and since the
yaw string is ahead of the c.g. it will show a tiny amount of slip in
a coordinated turn to start with. But overall the safest advice is to
keep the yaw string centered and not do anything too aggressive with
the controls.

9B

schrieb:
On Jul 21, 9:53 am, sisu1a wrote:
Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

I was taught to lead with the rudder as well - and by a very good
CFIG. I believe the idea is: 1) to build up a little angular momentum
into the turn, 2) to use differential tip speeds to pick up the
outside wing with less adverse yaw and, 3) to overcome any tendency
for students to try to turn only with the stick. On many very long-
winged gliders, you really can't set the turn up properly with out
slewing the aircraft to use the differential tip speeds to help pick
the wing up. If you use too much aileron to initiate the turn the
adverse yaw makes a mess of things.

Obviously kicking the rudder hard at stall can have a bad effect and
most pilots I know believe that a steady state turn with a little slip
is optimal because the fuselage produces a little lift and since the
yaw string is ahead of the c.g. it will show a tiny amount of slip in
a coordinated turn to start with. But overall the safest advice is to
keep the yaw string centered and not do anything too aggressive with
the controls.

9B

I too was taught to use rudder first but I have a hard time viewing
that as "intentionally skidding". It was more like "lead with the
rudder".

~ted/2NO

On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:
Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

Actually I learned to do the same thing, although from a commercial
pilot rather than my instructor.
Especially with long wing and/or slippery gliders (as opposed to the
2-33, which was rather
forgiving in this matter) the rudder tends to be underpowered, so you
can clean up
your coordination easier with adverse yaw. It seems backward, but it
works well if
you understand the principle involved. Personally I don't teach that
to a student until they've
got a good understanding of the controls, however.

One thing in particular that my instructor taught me is the importance
of really good coordination.
As a student, when I tried thermalling, I would find that my
instructor was "helping" me out
when the yawstring would suddenly "starch" itself exactly in the
center and the vario would
suddenly read about 200fpm better (he was really bad about that "my
plane, your plane"
business, and so I tend to be bad about it myself!).

-- Matt

I was taught to keep the string in the middle and to use whatever inputs
are needed to achive this. I was encouraged to experiment and find out
by myself what this means and was pointed to the fact that different
ships may need different inputs.

On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. [snip]

If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked.

End of story.

On Jul 21, 12:11*pm, PMSC Member wrote:
On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. [snip]

If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked.

End of story.

And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets.

Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's
talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents
and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not
really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really
works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions
students to developing a feel for flying these gliders.

Darryl

On Jul 21, 11:53*am, sisu1a wrote:
Hi All,

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. On his 1-5 list of making a turn in a glider, #1 is
rudder (as it's own separate input). While this may be aerodynamically
acceptable practice for a 2-33, it seems a recipie for disaster in
other ships to begin a turn by intentionally skidding. Since in a
pinch, one has a tendency to revert to instincts that were first
learned/practiced (right OR wrong), I see this as a setup for possible
future problems.
Since I have issues with this, I want to gather some other opinions
(particularly those of *other CFI's) to help present a case to
possibly get this corrected. He holds little value of MYopinion, so I
was hoping to get some 'name brand' opinions to help my case. And if I
am just putting to much into this, I would rather hear it from this
group.

-Paul

I think we're talking about a slight difference in "timing" between
ailerons and rudder. I can't imagine this CFIG would have you actually
"yaw" the aircraft to any significant degree before applying aileron.
If that's what you're implying, then I'd say that's pretty strange.
John's post makes the most sense; "Do what you have to do to keep the
string centered."

I think the needed rudder/aileron timing depends on the ship you're
flying. Ships with pronounced adverse yaw probably need a bit more
"lead" with the rudder. Our club L-23 is like that. Every time I get
in that ship, it takes a little while to get the timing down (I don't
fly it often). With the not-so-good yaw stability and strong adverse
yaw tendency, it's quite different than my LS1f. The LS likes
"simultaneous" control input. It exhibits very little adverse yaw. I
don't have to "lead" at all with it.

I know I wouldn't want to lead too harshly entering my turn to final.
Heaven forbid if you were too slow. I'd much rather enter the turn to
final with a slight slip due to being a tad late on the rudder than
the alternative (with the obvious consequences).


Dave

On Jul 21, 2:27*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 21, 12:11*pm, PMSC Member wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. [snip]

If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked.

End of story.

And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets.

Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's
talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents
and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not
really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really
works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions
students to developing a feel for flying these gliders.

Darryl

Darryl,

You captured better what I was trying to say. I was still typing when
you posted your message.


Dave