Overspeed Recovery question

If you inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red range, and you get into the high speed vibration, what is the best way to slow before the wings depart the glider. My sense is to reach for the spoilers and slowly extend to slow. Any opinions on that matter?

On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 9:58:58 PM UTC-5, wrote:
If you inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red range, and you get into the high speed vibration, what is the best way to slow before the wings depart the glider. My sense is to reach for the spoilers and slowly extend to slow. Any opinions on that matter?

Besides the tendency for the spoilers to suck out and then bend back on the wing?????.... no problem.

Dropping the gear, easy pull back on the stick, don't look too hard at the ASI, etc........

On 2/10/2015 7:58 PM, wrote:
If you inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red range, and
you get into the high speed vibration, what is the best way to slow before
the wings depart the glider. My sense is to reach for the spoilers and
slowly extend to slow. Any opinions on that matter?


Priority One: Undo what you last did to get yourself into that situation -
which as stated appears to have been too much forward stick. Assuming gravity
(and not your straps or "purely" centripetal force) is keeping your butt
pressed into the seat, get the stick back promptly, which will have the almost
immediate effect of reducing the rate of energy increase, and even better - if
you get the nose up high enough - reducing its accumulation.

Once you're happy with your energy-state, you can can consider doing "other
stuff"...dropping the gear (will mostly make noise), spoilers (if below their
max opening speed and you're physically/mentally prepared for a "Holy S&*%!"
experience if this is your first opening of them at any speed not fairly close
to your normal pattern entry opening speed); etc.

Priority Two: Throughout, keep your mental cool, rationally assess the effect
of everything you do before doing something else, and seriously consider
landing ASAP depending on the nature/seriousness of the vibration (which, of
course you really can't completely assess from inside a flying cockpit).

Priority Three: RTFM (if the ship has one; U.S. Exp. Amateur Built ships may
not have much of one, if any)!

Bob W.

P.S. Of course, RTFM is actually Priority One, but the question as-posed
precludes reasonably doing so. :-)

On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 9:04:26 PM UTC-7, Bob Whelan wrote:
On 2/10/2015 7:58 PM, wrote:
If you inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red range, and
you get into the high speed vibration, what is the best way to slow before
the wings depart the glider. My sense is to reach for the spoilers and
slowly extend to slow. Any opinions on that matter?


Priority One: Undo what you last did to get yourself into that situation -
which as stated appears to have been too much forward stick. Assuming gravity
(and not your straps or "purely" centripetal force) is keeping your butt
pressed into the seat, get the stick back promptly, which will have the almost
immediate effect of reducing the rate of energy increase, and even better - if
you get the nose up high enough - reducing its accumulation.

Once you're happy with your energy-state, you can can consider doing "other
stuff"...dropping the gear (will mostly make noise), spoilers (if below their
max opening speed and you're physically/mentally prepared for a "Holy S&*%!"
experience if this is your first opening of them at any speed not fairly close
to your normal pattern entry opening speed); etc.

Priority Two: Throughout, keep your mental cool, rationally assess the effect
of everything you do before doing something else, and seriously consider
landing ASAP depending on the nature/seriousness of the vibration (which, of
course you really can't completely assess from inside a flying cockpit).

Priority Three: RTFM (if the ship has one; U.S. Exp. Amateur Built ships may
not have much of one, if any)!

Bob W.

P.S. Of course, RTFM is actually Priority One, but the question as-posed
precludes reasonably doing so. :-)

I think the key point is smoothness on the controls.

If the ground is no factor, don't try to fix things too quickly. Ease back a tiny bit until the airspeed starts a slow downward trend then let that trend ease you out of the dive. If the wings are still on, they'll probably stay on as the airspeed bleeds off.

If the ground is an issue, aim to scare the crap out of the worms by using all the height you have left in a low G pull out. You want to just barely miss the earth. As the airspeed drops into the yellow arc, slowly add up to 1/3 of your up elevator travel and when it gets into the green arc you can pile on more G up to your gliders useful load factor but beware of a secondary accelerated stall.

I would not recommend spoilers at all especially if you are pulling G. They shift the spanwise lift distribution outboard increasing the bending stress on the wing spar. In a low pullout, spoilers increase the radius and the likelihood of hitting the ground.

At 02:58 11 February 2015, wrote:
If you inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red range,
and
=
you get into the high speed vibration, what is the best way to slow
before
=
the wings depart the glider. My sense is to reach for the spoilers and
slo=
wly extend to slow. Any opinions on that matter?

A very experienced test pilot once told me, and several others, that if you
were faced with exceeding VNE you should pull as hard as you can, even if
it means exceeding max G load, to reduce speed as soon as you can to below
VNE. Catastrophic structural failures due to excess G are very rare unless
there are other factors, catastrophic failures due to flutter are almost
inevitable.
There is no right answer, just a less wrong one and I would stress I have
not had the opportunity to test this.
One of the requirements on a Grob 103 post major inspection test flight was
to operate the spoilers at 70kts, having done this many times I would not
recommend the spoilers option.

How can you "inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red
range"? Sleeping at the helm? You have to have quite a nose down
attitude to get near the red line and it doesn't sneak up on you. It's
very noisy and pitch sensitive.

Don's advice below is excellent.


On 2/11/2015 3:20 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 02:58 11 February 2015, wrote:
If you inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red range,
and
=
you get into the high speed vibration, what is the best way to slow
before
=
the wings depart the glider. My sense is to reach for the spoilers and
slo=
wly extend to slow. Any opinions on that matter?

A very experienced test pilot once told me, and several others, that if you
were faced with exceeding VNE you should pull as hard as you can, even if
it means exceeding max G load, to reduce speed as soon as you can to below
VNE. Catastrophic structural failures due to excess G are very rare unless
there are other factors, catastrophic failures due to flutter are almost
inevitable.
There is no right answer, just a less wrong one and I would stress I have
not had the opportunity to test this.
One of the requirements on a Grob 103 post major inspection test flight was
to operate the spoilers at 70kts, having done this many times I would not
recommend the spoilers option.


--
Dan Marotta

On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 8:10:30 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
How can you "inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the
red range"?* Sleeping at the helm?* You have to have quite a nose
down attitude to get near the red line and it doesn't sneak up on
you.* It's very noisy and pitch sensitive.



Don's advice below is excellent.






On 2/11/2015 3:20 AM, Don Johnstone
wrote:



At 02:58 11 February 2015, wrote:


If you inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red range,


and


=
you get into the high speed vibration, what is the best way to slow


before


=
the wings depart the glider. My sense is to reach for the spoilers and
slo=
wly extend to slow. Any opinions on that matter?



A very experienced test pilot once told me, and several others, that if you
were faced with exceeding VNE you should pull as hard as you can, even if
it means exceeding max G load, to reduce speed as soon as you can to below
VNE. Catastrophic structural failures due to excess G are very rare unless
there are other factors, catastrophic failures due to flutter are almost
inevitable.
There is no right answer, just a less wrong one and I would stress I have
not had the opportunity to test this.
One of the requirements on a Grob 103 post major inspection test flight was
to operate the spoilers at 70kts, having done this many times I would not
recommend the spoilers option.






--

Dan Marotta

Easier than you might think when flying at altitude, I inadvertently did it in my HP16T while going through a FAI Start for a 300k triangle at 12000 feet on a hot summer day, I was indicating 15kts under Red line when I experienced a low frequency elevator flutter, A gentle pull back on the stick and it stopped, probably lasted less than a second but definitely got my attention. A few minutes with an E6B, showed that my True Airspeed was well over VNE.

Brian

At 15:10 11 February 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
How can you "inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red
range"? Sleeping at the helm? You have to have quite a nose down
attitude to get near the red line and it doesn't sneak up on you. It's
very noisy and pitch sensitive.

Don's advice below is excellent.


On 2/11/2015 3:20 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 02:58 11 February 2015, wrote:
If you inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red range,
and

you get into the high speed vibration, what is the best way to slow
before

the wings depart the glider. My sense is to reach for the spoilers
and
slo
wly extend to slow. Any opinions on that matter?

A very experienced test pilot once told me, and several others, that if
you
were faced with exceeding VNE you should pull as hard as you can, even
if
it means exceeding max G load, to reduce speed as soon as you can to
below
VNE. Catastrophic structural failures due to excess G are very rare
unless
there are other factors, catastrophic failures due to flutter are
almost


inevitable.
There is no right answer, just a less wrong one and I would stress I
have
not had the opportunity to test this.
One of the requirements on a Grob 103 post major inspection test flight
was
to operate the spoilers at 70kts, having done this many times I would
not
recommend the spoilers option.


--
Dan Marotta


Once, while practicing aerobatics in my Pilatus B4, and entirely due to my

own clumsiness, I found myself in a 45 degree inverted dive and rapidly
approaching Vne. Fortunately, I did what I was trained to do, which was to

push hard until the nose was above the horizon, then roll out. It was all
captured on my cockpit mounted Go-Pro. This shows the momentary
hesitation while I overcame the instinct to pull. The ASI shows 130knots
(Vne) was just touched, and the accelerometer, after initially being
obscured
by my left arm rising to be firmly held against the canopy, showed -4g.

Had I pulled through, I would probably have exceeded Vne by 30knots.

On landing, the aircraft was thoroughly checked, and found to have suffered

no ill effects.

I am thankful for the thoroughness of my training, and for the robustness
of
the B4.

At 16:12 12 February 2015, Michael Corcoran wrote:
At 15:10 11 February 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:
How can you "inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red
range"? Sleeping at the helm? You have to have quite a nose down
attitude to get near the red line and it doesn't sneak up on you. It's
very noisy and pitch sensitive.

Don's advice below is excellent.


On 2/11/2015 3:20 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 02:58 11 February 2015, wrote:
If you inadvertently fly into the yellow range and kiss the red
range,
and

you get into the high speed vibration, what is the best way to slow
before

the wings depart the glider. My sense is to reach for the spoiler
and
slo
wly extend to slow. Any opinions on that matter?

A very experienced test pilot once told me, and several others, that
if
you
were faced with exceeding VNE you should pull as hard as you can,
even
if
it means exceeding max G load, to reduce speed as soon as you can to
below
VNE. Catastrophic structural failures due to excess G are very rare
unless
there are other factors, catastrophic failures due to flutter ar
almost


inevitable.
There is no right answer, just a less wrong one and I would stress
have
not had the opportunity to test this.
One of the requirements on a Grob 103 post major inspection test
flight
was
to operate the spoilers at 70kts, having done this many times I woul
not
recommend the spoilers option.


--
Dan Marotta


Once, while practicing aerobatics in my Pilatus B4, and entirely due to m

own clumsiness, I found myself in a 45 degree inverted dive and rapidly
approaching Vne. Fortunately, I did what I was trained to do, which was t

push hard until the nose was above the horizon, then roll out. It was all

captured on my cockpit mounted Go-Pro. This shows the momentary
hesitation while I overcame the instinct to pull. The ASI shows 130knots
(Vne) was just touched, and the accelerometer, after initially bein
obscured
by my left arm rising to be firmly held against the canopy, showed -4g.

Had I pulled through, I would probably have exceeded Vne by 30knots.

On landing, the aircraft was thoroughly checked, and found to have
suffere

no ill effects.

I am thankful for the thoroughness of my training, and for the robustnes
of
the B4



I'm Genuinely relieved that the original poster is not a trained glider
pilot,because most people once trained are so used to speed control the
situation does not occur.
Which is why we have been talking about loosing control in clouds or
failing
to allow for the reduced VNE at altitude.
Presumably if you fly high enough you can get to a coffin corner where the

stall speed is higher than the hight adjusted VNE but we should be so lucky

as to get there.
I was impressed with the pushing to recover from an inverted dive ,not
something to try without proper training.
Fun thread ,hope the snow melts soon.

I'm Genuinely relieved that the original poster is not a trained glider
pilot,because most people once trained are so used to speed control the
situation does not occur.
Which is why we have been talking about loosing control in clouds or
failing
to allow for the reduced VNE at altitude.
Presumably if you fly high enough you can get to a coffin corner where the

stall speed is higher than the hight adjusted VNE but we should be so lucky

as to get there.
I was impressed with the pushing to recover from an inverted dive ,not
something to try without proper training.
Fun thread ,hope the snow melts soon.

I originally posted the question and actually, I am a trained and rated glider pilot and in addition to my 28,000 hours of flight time, I'm type rated in 747, 767, 737, DA20. In my glider training, I was trained to avoid VNE but am aware that there are circumstances where one can find himself (in this case it was in CONDOR flight simulaton) in rapid buildup of speed that continues on through the yellow arch and rapidly approaches VNE. I've encountered that very situation at high altitude in Jet aircraft, in heavy mountain wave conditions. In those instances, the only available action is to kill some lift by carefully extending spoilers - it works well but gliders are a different animal and and this forum is an excellent place to go when one has a question.