Comair Pilot Error

I am getting tired of comments like "controller should have warned the
pilots", or "taxiway was confusing", or "runway lights were off" etc..
One could not find a better example of a pure and simple pilot error.
The runway was clear, the weather was VFR, and the airplane was working
fine. It is highly likely that this was the only airplane maneuvering
at the airport. Even if the controller had cleared him to takeoff on
runway 26, the responsibility would have been on the pilot to decline
that clearance. Yet, a perfectly good airplane was run off the runway
and ploughed into the woods.

NTSB is investigating whether the pilots had coffee that morning, and
how much sleep they got. This is a futile exercise. Taxiing and
departing from a relatively quiet airport under VFR conditions is an
extremely low workload situation. We are not talking about shooting a
non-precision approach to minimums in a thunderstorm after a full day
of flying. A pilot should be able to do this even if he had partied all
night at the bar. What happened was gross negligence.

I shudder to think that my wife and baby flew the Comair CRJ only a few
days prior to this accident. Fortunately they are flying back with me
in our trusty GA airplane. I feel a lot better about it than trusting
my family to stupid mistakes that even my students pilots know how to
avoid. I sincerely feel for those who lost loved ones. They have the
right be very angry. I am angry, and I did not lose anything.

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
oups.com...
[...] I sincerely feel for those who lost loved ones. They have the
right be very angry. I am angry, and I did not lose anything.

You have never made a single mistake, ever, while flying an airplane?

IMHO, your anger is misplaced. It's not like the pilots made the mistake on
purpose. And so far, there's not any indication that they did something
blatantly irresponsible that led to their mistake. For someone who has
absolutely ZERO first-hand knowledge of the accident, nor any reliable
second-hand knowledge for that matter, you sure are throwing some pretty
strong accusations around.

*Maybe* if you've never made a mistake in your life, anger *might* be a
valid response. Otherwise, "there but for the grace of God go I" seems more
appropriate to me (whether or not you believe in God, the meaning of the
sentiment is clear and valid).

By the way, while the weather was VFR, it was an hour before sunrise. That
is, basically still pitch dark. The poorer quality of runway may not have
been apparent lit only by the airplane's lights, and there may have been
some fluke with the signage that led the pilots to think they were at the
correct runway. Your assertion that fatigue or the early hour could not
have been an issue is simply absurd. There are at least a dozen other
factors that have already been reported that could have been contributory,
and there are dozens, if not hundreds more that no one has even thought of
or identified yet.

I'll say one thing though...you're probably a blast at the Lynch Mobs of
America convention. I hope the rest of us can at least wait until the
investigation is complete before we start talking crucifiction.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
oups.com...
[...] I sincerely feel for those who lost loved ones. They have the
right be very angry. I am angry, and I did not lose anything.

You have never made a single mistake, ever, while flying an airplane?

IMHO, your anger is misplaced. It's not like the pilots made the mistake
on purpose. And so far, there's not any indication that they did
something blatantly irresponsible that led to their mistake.

Yes there most certainly is, and its more than an indication. Its a fact
that they either accepted a line up check on their HSI's telling them they
were on the wrong runway or they didn't make a correct runway lineup check.
Either way, it was a fatal error not to have made the lineup check or making
the check incorrectly. There is no way around the fact that they made the
takeoff on the wrong runway. This indicates an incorrect reading on the HSI
for the right runway or starting the run without a verifying check on the
means in the aircraft to verify the right runway.
Even if it can be argued that both HSI's were out, the mag compass would
also have had to be non operational. Last but not least, if ALL means of
verifying the correct runway were non functioning, that would mean they
accepted the runway they were on as the right runway without a verifying
lineup check.
No matter how you cut this one, pilot error is seriously indicated by the
simple fact that the takeoff roll was started on the runway not assigned to
them.
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote:

No matter how you cut this one, pilot error is seriously indicated by the simple
fact that the takeoff roll was started on the runway not assigned to them.


Just for curiosity - had the takeoff been pulled off and the airplane
carried on, would the FAA have warned the pilots nonetheless or would
nobody have heard of it at all?

Ramapriya

wrote in message
oups.com...
Just for curiosity - had the takeoff been pulled off and the airplane
carried on, would the FAA have warned the pilots nonetheless or would
nobody have heard of it at all?

I guess that depends on who knew the takeoff occurred on the wrong runway,
and whether they would say anything. It seems likely that the controller
wasn't paying attention, so he probably wouldn't have even known. That
leaves the pilots, and they probably wouldn't say anything. Though, one
hopes they would at least file an ASRS report describing the situation (and
perhaps the surviving pilot still will).

Pete

wrote in message
oups.com...
Dudley Henriques wrote:

No matter how you cut this one, pilot error is seriously indicated by the
simple
fact that the takeoff roll was started on the runway not assigned to
them.


Just for curiosity - had the takeoff been pulled off and the airplane
carried on, would the FAA have warned the pilots nonetheless or would
nobody have heard of it at all?

Ramapriya

Difficult to say really. Things like that can get very arbitrary and
selective.
Had they the runway to actually make the takeoff, and the tower noticed it
after the fact, it would probably have been a crap shoot as to whether or
not the controller would have keyed the mike and told them. Once that had
been done, a report would have to be filed as the incident would be on the
tower tape.
I'm just guessing, but I would think they would have nailed him, as the
responsibility for the commit to takeoff on the wrong runway would lie with
the PIC rather than the tower, and noticing something as serious as this
would most likely be a reflex action for a controller.
For the pilots; another crap shoot. If they declare, its a trip to the front
office as a minimum and a possible loss of the job in the balance. On the
other hand, had they made it unnoticed by the tower, and picked up the error
by themselves, it would have been another crap shoot as to which one of them
would hit the mike and spill the beans. My understanding is that the first
officer made the takeoff. That leaves the Captain to answer how he LET the
first officer make the takeoff. The Captain gets nailed either way.
These things are never easy to answer. The plain simple truth is that
professional aviation is an endeavor where people make mistakes. The problem
is that in professional aviation, mistakes like this one are not allowed.
I noticed one poster addressing the issue by attempting to deal with the
"anybody can make a mistake" scenario. In the world of professional
aviation, this simply won't wash.
The trick to survival in this business is not to make the mistake in the
first place. If you do make that mistake, you will most likely either be
dead or out of a job.
In the ideal world, two pilots would make a mistake, catch it after they did
it, then report it and take part in a process that would help prevent the
next two pilots from making the same mistake. In the real world, you report
doing something like this and the outcome can be career ending.
In a white paper I wrote once on low altitude demonstration flying I began
with a simple comment in the preface. That comment read as follows and hung
framed over my desk for over 30 years;
" I once had a friend. Jim was one horrific flying son-of-a-bitch. He was
the best natural born pilot I've ever known. In his entire career, he only
made one mistake.
Jim's dead."
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote:

If you do make that mistake, you will most likely either be dead or out of a job.


Thanks, mate.

Reports suggest that the plane hit a perimeter fence. Since that could
only have happened if the plane whacked into it on its takeoff roll not
having begun rotation, it's obvious that the pilots didn't sight it.
Makes me want to ask how effective landing lights are, normally? Are
they as good to pilots as car headlights are to drivers? My hunch is
they're not... since you don't expect traffic in your way in airplanes


Ramapriya

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

My understanding is that the first officer made the takeoff. That
leaves the Captain to answer how he LET the first officer make the
takeoff. The Captain gets nailed either way.

While both are responsible for the decision, I understand that only the
captain on a CRJ has access to the tiller, so he would have lined up the
aircraft before handing it over to the FO.

No matter how you cut this one, pilot error is seriously indicated by the
simple fact that the takeoff roll was started on the runway not assigned to
them.

And the wrong runway for their aircraft regardless of what they were
assigned.

Ron Lee

As for doing a compass cross-check on line up, windshield
heat was probably ON and that can cause errors in the
compass of 30-45 degrees, but the slaved systems are
independent of each other and I doubt that the crew would
take-off with either system flagged and a cross-check of the
pilot and co-pilot HSI is on the check list.

Back in the late 60's when I was a new PP, I flew from
Illinois to Wyoming, taking two friends on a hunting trip.
Departing Joe Foss airport just after dark, I asked ground
for progressive taxi since I had never been their before.
They did a nice job. The controller said, "You can do your
run-up there" and when I called ready the controller cleared
me without delay. I turned onto the "runway" and began a
take-off roll, aligned with the row of white lights. But
within a few seconds I realized something was wrong and
aborted. We then bounced around in some tall grass [enough
bouncing that the landing lights failed]. The controller
asked "55Q, are you having trouble?" to which I replied a
little latter as we got back to the pavement after a 180 in
the grass, "Not anymore."
I taxied back and had the FBO inspect the airplane for
damage, there was none and replace the landing light bulbs.
A look at the airport diagram showed the problem, they had
been working on the taxiway lights and the blue covers were
not installed and the taxiway and runways came together in a
V with bit of taxiway at the bottom. My takeoff was into
the open V. Thankfully, the grass was smooth, no drainage
ditches [rapid prayers for no ditches, rocks or fences
worked].

That is when I learned and added a compass check before
take-off. Been there, done that and survived.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...
|
| "Peter Duniho" wrote in
message
| ...
| "Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
|
oups.com...
| [...] I sincerely feel for those who lost loved ones.
They have the
| right be very angry. I am angry, and I did not lose
anything.
|
| You have never made a single mistake, ever, while flying
an airplane?
|
| IMHO, your anger is misplaced. It's not like the pilots
made the mistake
| on purpose. And so far, there's not any indication that
they did
| something blatantly irresponsible that led to their
mistake.
|
| Yes there most certainly is, and its more than an
indication. Its a fact
| that they either accepted a line up check on their HSI's
telling them they
| were on the wrong runway or they didn't make a correct
runway lineup check.
| Either way, it was a fatal error not to have made the
lineup check or making
| the check incorrectly. There is no way around the fact
that they made the
| takeoff on the wrong runway. This indicates an incorrect
reading on the HSI
| for the right runway or starting the run without a
verifying check on the
| means in the aircraft to verify the right runway.
| Even if it can be argued that both HSI's were out, the mag
compass would
| also have had to be non operational. Last but not least,
if ALL means of
| verifying the correct runway were non functioning, that
would mean they
| accepted the runway they were on as the right runway
without a verifying
| lineup check.
| No matter how you cut this one, pilot error is seriously
indicated by the
| simple fact that the takeoff roll was started on the
runway not assigned to
| them.
| Dudley Henriques
|
|