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"V-22 squadron achieves successin Iraq, USMC says"



 
 
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  #91  
Old February 10th 08, 04:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval,us.military.army
redc1c4
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 262
Default "V-22 squadron achieves successin Iraq, USMC says"

Ponce wrote:

redc1c4 wrote:
Ponce wrote:
La N wrote:
"Colin Campbell" (remove underscore) wrote in
message ...

You said something dumb - then myself and red started making fun of
you by - using standardized logistics terminology that you did not
understand.


Well, Vince, if nothing else, you can bust Colin on very bad grammar ...

- nilita


he does not know the difference between supply and logistics so the case
is closed

Vince


IOW: "i'm wrong so i need a way to save face...."

redc1c4,
you're an immodest man, with much to be modest about. %-)


keep demonstrating your ignorance

Vince


even if i were to try, i lack the natural talent you are so eager to display
on a regular basis, such as in this thread.

lacking your obvious talent, i shall have to restrict showing my ass to 2H6
and the cats, with the occasional late summer night skinny dip thrown in....

redc1c4,
amateurs talk about logistics, but professionals have actually dealt with them.
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."

Army Officer's Guide
  #92  
Old February 10th 08, 04:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval,us.military.army
redc1c4
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 262
Default "V-22 squadron achieves successin Iraq, USMC says"

Ponce wrote:

La N wrote:
"Vince" wrote in message
. ..
Colin Campbell wrote:
On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 09:16:35 -0500, Vince wrote:

Colin Campbell wrote:
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:28:54 -0800, redc1c4
wrote:


i've yet to see you defend your claim that all ammunition resupply in
Iraq
is transported via air assets. care to cite the message ID where you
did that?
i certainly provided several definitive cites showing otherwise.
The most amusing thing was that the claimed to know how ammunition is
moved - but did not even catch on to the term 'Class V.'
OFCS

You are simply adding to the demonstration of ignorance

"Class V" is a question of supply not logistics
ROTFL!

Thank you for demonstrating that you have no clue. Do you really think
that 'classes of supply' and the logistics of
moving them are separate issues?

"logistics of moving them" simply indicates your total ignorance

Logistics is logistics whether you are looking at a roman army or a
Prussian one .

Transport systems are a tiny fraction of the job.


Here is a clue for you (now you can say you have one):

The term 'priority of supply' is part of the logistics annex in an
Operations Order. Each supply category is given a priority and the
highest priorities are the focus of the logistics effort.
supply, not logistics
Logistics decides what supplies you can or should have


Here is another clue for you (now you can claim to have _two_ clues!):

Each class of supply has different movement priorities. For example:
toilet paper (a Class II item) would not be moved by air because it
tends to be a very low priority item.

Class III and V are high cube and mass items that are typically moved
on the ground. However - air movement is always planned for as a
contingency because of its criticality in fighting a battle. Besides -
you have still not explained why we should take your
uninformed opinion as to the effectiveness of the aircraft over that
of the people who actually fly it and maintain it.
For the same reason we ignore horse cavalrymen battleship admirals and
air force lunatics who thought B-17s could defend themselves


I teach the evaluation of expertise and the problem of conflict of
interest. Ipse Dixit just doesn't cut it


Okay, since now I am interested in military logistics, I decided to look it
up
myself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistics

"In military logistics, logistics officers manage how and when to move
resources to the places they are needed. In military science, maintaining
one's supply lines while disrupting those of the enemy is a crucial-some
would say the most crucial-element of military strategy, since an armed
force without resources and transportation is defenseless.

"The defeat of the British in the American War of Independence, and the
defeat of Erwin Rommel in World War II, have been largely attributed to
logistical failure. The historical leaders Hannibal Barca, Alexander the
Great and the Duke of Wellington are considered to have been logistical
geniuses."

And from: http://www.army-technology.com/glossary/logistics.html

"Logistics
Logistics are the area of military operations dealing with the procurement,
distribution, maintenance, and replacement of materiel and personnel."


right

Buying the V-22 is a logistics decision
What you fill it with on a given run is a supply decision

Vince


no.

what goes on the plane, versus what goes via the nonexistent convoys, is
part & parcel of logistics.

your denial of an essential truth doesn't make it any less so.

redc1c4,
who's been on more LOGPAC convoys than you've ever read about.
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."

Army Officer's Guide
  #93  
Old February 10th 08, 05:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval,us.military.army
Vince
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 134
Default "V-22 squadron achieves successin Iraq, USMC says"

redc1c4 wrote:
Ponce wrote:
redc1c4 wrote:
Ponce wrote:
La N wrote:
"Colin Campbell" (remove underscore) wrote in
message ...

You said something dumb - then myself and red started making fun of
you by - using standardized logistics terminology that you did not
understand.

Well, Vince, if nothing else, you can bust Colin on very bad grammar ...

- nilita


he does not know the difference between supply and logistics so the case
is closed

Vince
IOW: "i'm wrong so i need a way to save face...."

redc1c4,
you're an immodest man, with much to be modest about. %-)

keep demonstrating your ignorance

Vince


even if i were to try, i lack the natural talent you are so eager to display
on a regular basis, such as in this thread.

lacking your obvious talent, i shall have to restrict showing my ass to 2H6
and the cats, with the occasional late summer night skinny dip thrown in....

redc1c4,
amateurs talk about logistics, but professionals have actually dealt with them.



your only demonstrated talent is changing headers

wow did you learn that in junior high?

or grade school?

Vince


  #94  
Old February 10th 08, 05:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval,us.military.army
Vince
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 134
Default "V-22 squadron achieves successin Iraq, USMC says"

redc1c4 wrote:
Ponce wrote:
La N wrote:
"Vince" wrote in message
. ..
Colin Campbell wrote:
On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 09:16:35 -0500, Vince wrote:

Colin Campbell wrote:
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:28:54 -0800, redc1c4
wrote:


i've yet to see you defend your claim that all ammunition resupply in
Iraq
is transported via air assets. care to cite the message ID where you
did that?
i certainly provided several definitive cites showing otherwise.
The most amusing thing was that the claimed to know how ammunition is
moved - but did not even catch on to the term 'Class V.'
OFCS

You are simply adding to the demonstration of ignorance

"Class V" is a question of supply not logistics
ROTFL!

Thank you for demonstrating that you have no clue. Do you really think
that 'classes of supply' and the logistics of
moving them are separate issues?

"logistics of moving them" simply indicates your total ignorance

Logistics is logistics whether you are looking at a roman army or a
Prussian one .

Transport systems are a tiny fraction of the job.


Here is a clue for you (now you can say you have one):

The term 'priority of supply' is part of the logistics annex in an
Operations Order. Each supply category is given a priority and the
highest priorities are the focus of the logistics effort.
supply, not logistics
Logistics decides what supplies you can or should have


Here is another clue for you (now you can claim to have _two_ clues!):

Each class of supply has different movement priorities. For example:
toilet paper (a Class II item) would not be moved by air because it
tends to be a very low priority item.

Class III and V are high cube and mass items that are typically moved
on the ground. However - air movement is always planned for as a
contingency because of its criticality in fighting a battle. Besides -
you have still not explained why we should take your
uninformed opinion as to the effectiveness of the aircraft over that
of the people who actually fly it and maintain it.
For the same reason we ignore horse cavalrymen battleship admirals and
air force lunatics who thought B-17s could defend themselves


I teach the evaluation of expertise and the problem of conflict of
interest. Ipse Dixit just doesn't cut it

Okay, since now I am interested in military logistics, I decided to look it
up
myself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistics

"In military logistics, logistics officers manage how and when to move
resources to the places they are needed. In military science, maintaining
one's supply lines while disrupting those of the enemy is a crucial-some
would say the most crucial-element of military strategy, since an armed
force without resources and transportation is defenseless.

"The defeat of the British in the American War of Independence, and the
defeat of Erwin Rommel in World War II, have been largely attributed to
logistical failure. The historical leaders Hannibal Barca, Alexander the
Great and the Duke of Wellington are considered to have been logistical
geniuses."

And from: http://www.army-technology.com/glossary/logistics.html

"Logistics
Logistics are the area of military operations dealing with the procurement,
distribution, maintenance, and replacement of materiel and personnel."

right

Buying the V-22 is a logistics decision
What you fill it with on a given run is a supply decision

Vince


no.

what goes on the plane, versus what goes via the nonexistent convoys, is
part & parcel of logistics.

your denial of an essential truth doesn't make it any less so.

redc1c4,
who's been on more LOGPAC convoys than you've ever read about.


sorry

your experience handling cargo simply does not count

that is supply, not logistics, no matter what you want to call it

Stevedores handle supply

Vince



  #95  
Old February 10th 08, 06:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval,us.military.army
redc1c4
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 262
Default "V-22 squadron achieves successin Iraq, USMC says"

Ponce wrote:

redc1c4 wrote:
Ponce wrote:
La N wrote:
"Vince" wrote in message
. ..
Colin Campbell wrote:
On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 09:16:35 -0500, Vince wrote:

Colin Campbell wrote:
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:28:54 -0800, redc1c4
wrote:


i've yet to see you defend your claim that all ammunition resupply in
Iraq
is transported via air assets. care to cite the message ID where you
did that?
i certainly provided several definitive cites showing otherwise.
The most amusing thing was that the claimed to know how ammunition is
moved - but did not even catch on to the term 'Class V.'
OFCS

You are simply adding to the demonstration of ignorance

"Class V" is a question of supply not logistics
ROTFL!

Thank you for demonstrating that you have no clue. Do you really think
that 'classes of supply' and the logistics of
moving them are separate issues?

"logistics of moving them" simply indicates your total ignorance

Logistics is logistics whether you are looking at a roman army or a
Prussian one .

Transport systems are a tiny fraction of the job.


Here is a clue for you (now you can say you have one):

The term 'priority of supply' is part of the logistics annex in an
Operations Order. Each supply category is given a priority and the
highest priorities are the focus of the logistics effort.
supply, not logistics
Logistics decides what supplies you can or should have


Here is another clue for you (now you can claim to have _two_ clues!):

Each class of supply has different movement priorities. For example:
toilet paper (a Class II item) would not be moved by air because it
tends to be a very low priority item.

Class III and V are high cube and mass items that are typically moved
on the ground. However - air movement is always planned for as a
contingency because of its criticality in fighting a battle. Besides -
you have still not explained why we should take your
uninformed opinion as to the effectiveness of the aircraft over that
of the people who actually fly it and maintain it.
For the same reason we ignore horse cavalrymen battleship admirals and
air force lunatics who thought B-17s could defend themselves


I teach the evaluation of expertise and the problem of conflict of
interest. Ipse Dixit just doesn't cut it

Okay, since now I am interested in military logistics, I decided to look it
up
myself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistics

"In military logistics, logistics officers manage how and when to move
resources to the places they are needed. In military science, maintaining
one's supply lines while disrupting those of the enemy is a crucial-some
would say the most crucial-element of military strategy, since an armed
force without resources and transportation is defenseless.

"The defeat of the British in the American War of Independence, and the
defeat of Erwin Rommel in World War II, have been largely attributed to
logistical failure. The historical leaders Hannibal Barca, Alexander the
Great and the Duke of Wellington are considered to have been logistical
geniuses."

And from: http://www.army-technology.com/glossary/logistics.html

"Logistics
Logistics are the area of military operations dealing with the procurement,
distribution, maintenance, and replacement of materiel and personnel."

right

Buying the V-22 is a logistics decision
What you fill it with on a given run is a supply decision

Vince


no.

what goes on the plane, versus what goes via the nonexistent convoys, is
part & parcel of logistics.

your denial of an essential truth doesn't make it any less so.

redc1c4,
who's been on more LOGPAC convoys than you've ever read about.


sorry

your experience handling cargo simply does not count

that is supply, not logistics, no matter what you want to call it

Stevedores handle supply

Vince


and let the military calls it "Logistics".....

for instance:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...2/ai_109667385

and
https://www.nm.ngb.army.mil/DCSLOG/L...pply/index.htm

what's really amusing to me (besides your willful obtuseness) is that the
scenario in the first article clearly has an E-8 in charge, but i, as an E-4,
routinely lead these activities for my troop.

redc1c4,
you were saying? %-)
--
"Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear
considerable watching."

Army Officer's Guide
  #96  
Old February 10th 08, 11:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval,us.military.army
Paul J. Adam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 60
Default "V-22 squadron achieves successin Iraq, USMC says"

In message slsrj.19263$C61.5339@edtnps89, La N
writes

Okay, since now I am interested in military logistics, I decided to look it
up
myself:


Two cracking books on the subject, if you're interested: "Supplying War"
by Martin van Creveld, and "Lifeblood of War" by Julian Thompson.

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides


pauldotjdotadam[at]googlemail{dot}.com
  #97  
Old February 10th 08, 12:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval,us.military.army
La N
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default "V-22 squadron achieves successin Iraq, USMC says"


"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message slsrj.19263$C61.5339@edtnps89, La N
writes

Okay, since now I am interested in military logistics, I decided to look
it
up
myself:


Two cracking books on the subject, if you're interested: "Supplying War"
by Martin van Creveld, and "Lifeblood of War" by Julian Thompson.


Heheheh. What would my friends think if they spotted me reading those books
on my free time ...

- nilita


  #98  
Old February 10th 08, 01:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval,us.military.army
Vince
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 134
Default "V-22 squadron achieves successin Iraq, USMC says"

redc1c4 wrote:
redc1c4,
who's been on more LOGPAC convoys than you've ever read about.

sorry

your experience handling cargo simply does not count

that is supply, not logistics, no matter what you want to call it

Stevedores handle supply

Vince


and let the military calls it "Logistics".....

for instance:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...2/ai_109667385

and
https://www.nm.ngb.army.mil/DCSLOG/L...pply/index.htm

what's really amusing to me (besides your willful obtuseness) is that the
scenario in the first article clearly has an E-8 in charge, but i, as an E-4,
routinely lead these activities for my troop.



Im sorry you can cal a tail a leg but it doesn't make it so
An E-4 does supply, not logistics even in the US military


"Part of the Defense Logistics Agency, Logistics Operations (J-3)
includes Acquisition, Technical, and Supply (J-33), Business Management
and Integration (J-35), Distribution and Reutilization Policy (J-37),
Defense Standardization Program Office (J-307), and Internal Review
Office (J-308). Logistics Operations is responsible for the worldwide
logistics support throughout the Department of Defense.

The primary focus of J-3 is to support the warfighter in time of
war and peace. J-3 supports the procurement, management, storage and,
and distribution of 5.2 million items for U. S. military customers,
other federal agencies, and allied forces. To accomplish this mission,
DLA utilizes the support of Supply Centers, a Distribution Center, and
Service Centers.

http://www.supply.dla.mil/


Logistics turns money and other resources into fighting power
Supply delivers stuff to the battlefield
Its Been that way since the Greeks


"The word of logistics originates from the ancient Greek logos (?????),
which means “ratio, word, calculation, reason, speech, oration”.

Logistics is an idea considered to have transformed from the military's
need to supply themselves with arms and ammunition and ration as they
moved from their base to a forward position. In ancient Greek, Roman and
Byzantine empires, there were military officers with the title
‘Logistikas’ who were responsible for financial and supply distribution
matters.

The Oxford English dictionary defines logistics as: “The branch of
military science having to do with procuring, maintaining and
transporting material, personnel and facilities.”Another dictionary
definition is: "The time related positioning of resources." As such,
logistics is commonly seen as a branch of engineering which creates
"people systems" rather than "machine systems"...."


Vince
  #99  
Old February 10th 08, 03:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval,us.military.army
Peter Skelton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 93
Default "V-22 squadron achieves successin Iraq, USMC says"

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 15:20:27 -0800, redc1c4
wrote:

Peter Skelton wrote:

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 16:42:51 GMT, "La N"
wrote:


"Vince" wrote in message
news La N wrote:
"Colin Campbell" (remove underscore) wrote in
message ...

You said something dumb - then myself and red started making fun of
you by - using standardized logistics terminology that you did not
understand.



Well, Vince, if nothing else, you can bust Colin on very bad grammar ...


- nilita

he does not know the difference between supply and logistics so the case
is closed


Well, it has been an "interesting" debate between 2 people, each of whom has
never been known to admit when they have been wrong ...%)

That is not a fair accusation when aimed at Vince.

Peter Skelton


cite?

redc1c4,
who's seen Ponce be wrong many times, but who's never seen him admit it.


I've never seen you admit it either, and I've sure as hell seen
you wrong. (The whole V-22 thing has two wrong sides screaming
yes and no about something clearly unproven.)

What Vince does, like most posters, is abandons a point where he
is clearly incorrect. Pragmatically speaking, it's a good
approach.

The requested reference is in the material I posted, if you have
the wit and expereince to find it.


Peter Skelton
  #100  
Old February 10th 08, 03:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval,us.military.army
Peter Skelton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 93
Default "V-22 squadron achieves successin Iraq, USMC says"

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 01:22:32 GMT, "La N"
wrote:


"Vince" wrote in message
...
Colin Campbell wrote:
On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 09:16:35 -0500, Vince wrote:

Colin Campbell wrote:
On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:28:54 -0800, redc1c4
wrote:


i've yet to see you defend your claim that all ammunition resupply in
Iraq
is transported via air assets. care to cite the message ID where you
did that?
i certainly provided several definitive cites showing otherwise.
The most amusing thing was that the claimed to know how ammunition is
moved - but did not even catch on to the term 'Class V.'
OFCS

You are simply adding to the demonstration of ignorance

"Class V" is a question of supply not logistics

ROTFL!

Thank you for demonstrating that you have no clue. Do you really think
that 'classes of supply' and the logistics of
moving them are separate issues?


"logistics of moving them" simply indicates your total ignorance

Logistics is logistics whether you are looking at a roman army or a
Prussian one .

Transport systems are a tiny fraction of the job.


Here is a clue for you (now you can say you have one):

The term 'priority of supply' is part of the logistics annex in an
Operations Order. Each supply category is given a priority and the
highest priorities are the focus of the logistics effort.


supply, not logistics
Logistics decides what supplies you can or should have


Here is another clue for you (now you can claim to have _two_ clues!):

Each class of supply has different movement priorities. For example:
toilet paper (a Class II item) would not be moved by air because it
tends to be a very low priority item.

Class III and V are high cube and mass items that are typically moved
on the ground. However - air movement is always planned for as a
contingency because of its criticality in fighting a battle. Besides -
you have still not explained why we should take your
uninformed opinion as to the effectiveness of the aircraft over that
of the people who actually fly it and maintain it.


For the same reason we ignore horse cavalrymen battleship admirals and
air force lunatics who thought B-17s could defend themselves


I teach the evaluation of expertise and the problem of conflict of
interest. Ipse Dixit just doesn't cut it


Okay, since now I am interested in military logistics, I decided to look it
up
myself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistics

"In military logistics, logistics officers manage how and when to move
resources to the places they are needed. In military science, maintaining
one's supply lines while disrupting those of the enemy is a crucial-some
would say the most crucial-element of military strategy, since an armed
force without resources and transportation is defenseless.

"The defeat of the British in the American War of Independence, and the
defeat of Erwin Rommel in World War II, have been largely attributed to
logistical failure. The historical leaders Hannibal Barca, Alexander the
Great and the Duke of Wellington are considered to have been logistical
geniuses."

And from: http://www.army-technology.com/glossary/logistics.html

"Logistics
Logistics are the area of military operations dealing with the procurement,
distribution, maintenance, and replacement of materiel and personnel."

So supply is a subset of logistics.

(This differes from civilian terminology where supply is usually
provision, at a defined place and time, of inputs to your
logistics system. Your customers look on you as supply.)

Peter Skelton
 




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