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Looping a standard cirrus



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 19th 18, 03:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Default Looping a Standard Cirrus

On Friday, 19 January 2018 15:52:54 UTC+2, Andrew Ainslie wrote:
I never understand why people loop gliders designed for competition. Grab a club 21 or Grob or something less slippery with a bigger spar and have fun with that. Or even better, pay to go up in a Decathlon with an instructor and actually learn something in the process.

All that looping a slippery glider gets you is an awful butt-clenching sense of "Oh **** Oh **** Oh **** Oh **** Oh ****" as your eyes jump between the bending wings and the clockwise acceleration of the ASI.

Looping a competition glider makes as much sense as turning the engine off on a Pawnee and trying to soar it. In both cases, you're using the wrong tool for the job.


Because it's fun, if done with glider that is rated for aerobatics, and training to avoid that "oh ****".
  #22  
Old January 19th 18, 10:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected][_1_]
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Default Looping a Standard Cirrus

Pawnees do pretty well in the wave deadstick. Super Cubs are far better in ridge and thermal lift deadstick.

Because it is fun and outrageous. Soaring could use a bit more Fun and Outrageous.
  #23  
Old January 19th 18, 10:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Default Looping a Standard Cirrus

I remember using out C-150 in the wave over Wurtsboro, NY many years ago, (I fly out of Middletown, NY, about 12 miles away).
Not good enough to rig a sailplane, but gaining "yoke time" in power. Tuned in the local glider frequency and heard local glider pilots commenting on the "power guy" by them. I replied my intentions, stated I would avoid them, didn't want to waste a wave day.
Power at idle with carb heat, worth the flight.
  #24  
Old January 20th 18, 02:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas
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Default Looping a standard cirrus

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 6:57:46 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus? Any comments or hints. Currently getting some acro training with the goal of looping my cirrus.



Please get acro training in a two seat sailplane in an ASK-21. Acro training in an airplane such as a Citabria has the advantage of adding engine power at the top of the loop. In a sailplane you might get bit slow at that point.

Ask me how I know. Decades ago, I had acro training (spins, rolls, "round" loops and when you mess up, "dishing out" / "Split-S" recoveries) in a Citabria airplane from an acro competitor / CFI. Then in my Blanik I tried to make a "round" loop. At the top I got very slow and mushed down inverted for a few seconds. An acro CFI in Germany told me later that I could have entered an inverted spin. He suggested smooth full stick back at the top of the loop to make sure it gets all the way around past inverted without getting too slow.

Nor do you want to get too fast on the backside of the loop.
Your Standard Cirrus Vne is only 119 knots indicated at sea level, relatively slow compared to modern sailplanes. Entry speed for a loop in your Standard Cirrus per the flight manual is 97 knots.

Vne in my ASK-21 is 151 knots at sea level. 121 knots at 15,000' MSL. Entry speed for solo loop is 84 knots.
Check your flight manual to learn the "real" True Air Speed (TAS vs. IAS) at altitude as a sailplane will accelerate quickly nose down around the backside of the loop compared to a relatively draggy airplane. Know your maximum speed for deploying airbrakes / dive brakes.
Be real smooth on the controls (in any phase of flight) . . . your Cirrus sailplane is not a Pitts Special.

Know that your Va Maneuvering speed is lower when you are flying at a lower weight than max gross.
That might not seem intuitive but that's why Va speed is not usually marked on your airspeed indicator.
Va varies with aircraft weight. The flight manual Va, along with other limitations including load factor, is at your maximum allowable gross weight. By the way, "a" is for acceleration. Read up on Va.

Beware of flutter which can destroy an aircraft. Flight control connections, hinges, etc. need to be lubricated and as snug as they were from the factory. Consult your Maintenance Manual for how much control surface looseness or "jiggle" is allowed with someone holding the stick hard/still and then check the proper degrees of up/down or left/right control deflection. That would be on your FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) available at faa.gov

Adjust the airbrake pushrod tension so they do not pop full out when flying fast into the loop.
Keep your left hand on that blue airbrake handle to hold it in, then be ready to pull it if you get too fast on the backside of the loop.

Get a current Weight & Balance accomplished.
Install a calibrated G-meter.
My 1972 Standard Cirrus at Marfa, Texas, is fairly low time but I do not feel the need to loop it as "soaring" is what it does so well. If I want to do acro and not have to take a lot of tows, I get into a Citabria airplane.

My ASK-21 that I bought new is definitely loop capable. For resale value, I purposely imported it as "acro" from the Schleicher factory and it is FAA certificated as "Acrobatic." The factory installed calibrated G-meters with plus and minus red lines (+6.5 and - 4G at Va, not Vne), crotch straps for inverted flight and the structural red rings for your parachute static line. Yes, acro in the ASK-21 is fun. It also soars really well.

I do not consider myself a current acro instructor. My thoughts above are not ground school in acro nor for preparing your sailplane. I strongly recommend you contact a CFIG that is proficient in sailplane acrobatics. (By the way, in Germany, an "Acro" CFI is a separate CFI advanced rating.)

So, do what you like (up high) but my suggestion is to get dual instruction from the 4 time sailplane aerobatic champion Jason Stephens at Arizona Soaring, south of Phoenix. (See his advert on the inside front cover of your SOARING magazine.) Reading a book or my comments is not enough to be proficient.

Jason Stephens is the best and that's who I would get dual instruction from if I decided to get back into sailplane acro.

Burt Compton, CFI airplane & glider / FAA Designated Pilot Examiner
Marfa Gliders Soaring Center, southwest Texas
www.flygliders.com





  #25  
Old January 20th 18, 03:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas
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Posts: 182
Default Looping a standard cirrus

On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 3:42:20 AM UTC-6, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 1:57:46 PM UTC+13, wrote:
Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus?


Accidentally or intentionally?
If you don't know what I'm talking about, you should...


What Dave says . . .
The smoothest soaring pilot I ever flew with was Johnny Byrd (R.I.P), multiple time champion and member of our US World Team. He described to me about flying in very rough air when his Standard Cirrus sailplane pitched up vertical, so he pulled it around into a loop. He figured that was the best option to avoid a falling "tail slide" which might break the sailplane. It possibly pitched up so suddenly due the all-flying horizontal tailplane. I do not believe that he ever looped any other aircraft except for that "accidental" loop.

Johnny Byrd was cool cat. Quiet demeanor and always helpful. I learned a lot from his sharing of his knowledge and I miss him so . . .

Burt
Marfa, TX
  #26  
Old January 20th 18, 04:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
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Posts: 318
Default Looping a standard cirrus

At 02:10 20 January 2018, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west
Texas wrote:
On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 3:42:20 AM UTC-6, Dave Nadler

wrote:
On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 1:57:46 PM UTC+13,


wro=
te:
Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus?

=20
Accidentally or intentionally?
If you don't know what I'm talking about, you should...


What Dave says . . .=20
The smoothest soaring pilot I ever flew with was Johnny Byrd

(R.I.P),
multi=
ple time champion and member of our US World Team. He

described to me
abou=
t flying in very rough air when his Standard Cirrus sailplane pitched

up
ve=
rtical, so he pulled it around into a loop. He figured that was the

best
o=
ption to avoid a falling "tail slide" which might break the sailplane.

It
=
possibly pitched up so suddenly due the all-flying horizontal

tailplane.
I=
do not believe that he ever looped any other aircraft except for

that
"acc=
idental" loop. =20

Johnny Byrd was cool cat. Quiet demeanor and always helpful. I

learned a
=
lot from his sharing of his knowledge and I miss him so . . .=20

Burt
Marfa, TX


I miss 30 a lot as well... He was my team-mate....

RO

  #27  
Old January 20th 18, 04:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 266
Default Looping a standard cirrus

Doing a loop is well within the flight envelope of almost all modern (20 years) gliders. A low stress figure that is fun to fly.
BUT...you should have a verified, accurate G-meter.
AND...the greatest risk about flying aerobatics is knowing what to do when a figure is failing. Learning how to safely recover from a figure that is going bad is the true value of aeraobatic training. Most low time acro pilots I have flown with do not know what to do when they stall out at the top of a loop. They freeze at the controls while they are trying to think their way out of the situation. While they are thinking the aircraft is gaining speed VERY RAPIDLY. It takes only the blink of an eye to blow through your Vne. All of our current acro gliders have Vne around 150 knots. That gives us a large gap between the 100 knots we typically start and end a loop at and the Vne. Your glider Vne is so close to the entry/exit speed of a loop that it would be hard to give you a thumbs up on doing a loop in that aircraft.

Get acro training in an acro aircraft and be happy.
  #28  
Old January 20th 18, 09:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Looping a standard cirrus

On Friday, January 19, 2018 at 8:47:39 PM UTC-5, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas wrote:
On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 6:57:46 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Who has done a loop in a standard cirrus? Any comments or hints. Currently getting some acro training with the goal of looping my cirrus.



Please get acro training in a two seat sailplane in an ASK-21. Acro training in an airplane such as a Citabria has the advantage of adding engine power at the top of the loop. In a sailplane you might get bit slow at that point.

Ask me how I know. Decades ago, I had acro training (spins, rolls, "round" loops and when you mess up, "dishing out" / "Split-S" recoveries) in a Citabria airplane from an acro competitor / CFI. Then in my Blanik I tried to make a "round" loop. At the top I got very slow and mushed down inverted for a few seconds. An acro CFI in Germany told me later that I could have entered an inverted spin. He suggested smooth full stick back at the top of the loop to make sure it gets all the way around past inverted without getting too slow.

Nor do you want to get too fast on the backside of the loop.
Your Standard Cirrus Vne is only 119 knots indicated at sea level, relatively slow compared to modern sailplanes. Entry speed for a loop in your Standard Cirrus per the flight manual is 97 knots.

Vne in my ASK-21 is 151 knots at sea level. 121 knots at 15,000' MSL. Entry speed for solo loop is 84 knots.
Check your flight manual to learn the "real" True Air Speed (TAS vs. IAS) at altitude as a sailplane will accelerate quickly nose down around the backside of the loop compared to a relatively draggy airplane. Know your maximum speed for deploying airbrakes / dive brakes.
Be real smooth on the controls (in any phase of flight) . . . your Cirrus sailplane is not a Pitts Special.

Know that your Va Maneuvering speed is lower when you are flying at a lower weight than max gross.
That might not seem intuitive but that's why Va speed is not usually marked on your airspeed indicator.
Va varies with aircraft weight. The flight manual Va, along with other limitations including load factor, is at your maximum allowable gross weight. By the way, "a" is for acceleration. Read up on Va.

Beware of flutter which can destroy an aircraft. Flight control connections, hinges, etc. need to be lubricated and as snug as they were from the factory. Consult your Maintenance Manual for how much control surface looseness or "jiggle" is allowed with someone holding the stick hard/still and then check the proper degrees of up/down or left/right control deflection. That would be on your FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) available at faa.gov

Adjust the airbrake pushrod tension so they do not pop full out when flying fast into the loop.
Keep your left hand on that blue airbrake handle to hold it in, then be ready to pull it if you get too fast on the backside of the loop.

Get a current Weight & Balance accomplished.
Install a calibrated G-meter.
My 1972 Standard Cirrus at Marfa, Texas, is fairly low time but I do not feel the need to loop it as "soaring" is what it does so well. If I want to do acro and not have to take a lot of tows, I get into a Citabria airplane.

My ASK-21 that I bought new is definitely loop capable. For resale value, I purposely imported it as "acro" from the Schleicher factory and it is FAA certificated as "Acrobatic." The factory installed calibrated G-meters with plus and minus red lines (+6.5 and - 4G at Va, not Vne), crotch straps for inverted flight and the structural red rings for your parachute static line. Yes, acro in the ASK-21 is fun. It also soars really well.

I do not consider myself a current acro instructor. My thoughts above are not ground school in acro nor for preparing your sailplane. I strongly recommend you contact a CFIG that is proficient in sailplane acrobatics. (By the way, in Germany, an "Acro" CFI is a separate CFI advanced rating.)

So, do what you like (up high) but my suggestion is to get dual instruction from the 4 time sailplane aerobatic champion Jason Stephens at Arizona Soaring, south of Phoenix. (See his advert on the inside front cover of your SOARING magazine.) Reading a book or my comments is not enough to be proficient.

Jason Stephens is the best and that's who I would get dual instruction from if I decided to get back into sailplane acro.

Burt Compton, CFI airplane & glider / FAA Designated Pilot Examiner
Marfa Gliders Soaring Center, southwest Texas
www.flygliders.com


I agree with everything Burt says but would add that there is a meaningful difference between acro in a '21 or Grob and most single seaters. Things get out of hand slower in the 2 seaters. One should be pretty good in deuce before doing in single.
UH
  #29  
Old January 21st 18, 10:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 278
Default Looping a standard cirrus

"Looping a competition glider makes as much sense as turning the engine off on a Pawnee and trying to soar it."

Wow, too bad no one told Oscar Boesch that before he spent all those years doing aerobatic shows in an ASW-15. Poor guy wasted his life I guess.
 




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