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The US Team selection process in future years



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 6th 17, 02:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
XC
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Posts: 91
Default The US Team selection process in future years

I am starting this post to get the topic off one individual's personality. The 2018 team has ben selected as outlined in the new process. Claims that the process was not carried out fairly have no basis in fact. The Team has very little time to prepare and needs to get to work.

Here is a summary of what I've seen. In years past the team was hand picked and had some success but feelings were hurt and people felt unfairly excluded. Then we went totally objective and haven't had much success. This last time some good folks put a lot of thought into a new process. The SSA approved a plan to switch to more of hybrid system where competitors were allowed some input. Now already we are back talking about unfairness and feelings being hurt.

In the same period of time the whole WGC game changed in many ways, going to team flying and now changing away from team flying in some classes, technology changes each year, etc. For example we showed up in Australia not knowing that texting pilots via satellite would now be allowed. We were not prepared for this at all and we again were at a disadvantage. Also the US soaring community has decreased in size to say the least. Many other factors....

I would suggest that adaptability and efficient use of resources are keys to success moving forward. Below is a link to an interesting interview with Bill Walsh, coach of the 49er's, about building an effective team in today's world of individualism. There are many good points in there some of which pertain to our situation. It addresses ego - good and bad, team work, recognizing the value the whole team not just the starting players.

https://hbr.org/1993/01/to-build-a-w...ach-bill-walsh

I would like to contrast the teams Coach Walsh is talking about to your average Joe's fantasy football team. If you put the best fantasy football team together for real and told them to go play ball they wouldn't do well at all. If you read the article you will see that his teams are definitely about the game going forward, the goal of winning, and not about rewarding past performance.

So do we return two steps to naming a coach to build a team totally at his/her discretion? Do we go back one step to relying on a strict numerical ranking? Do we support the current system (modified as necessary) with some rankings and yet some ability to make adjustments?

Whatever opinion you post, please be supportive of this year's team. We want them to do well, right? Please be kind to our volunteers. We only have so many people willing to take on this work.

XC
  #2  
Old November 6th 17, 07:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Posts: 351
Default The US Team selection process in future years

The really interesting thing about this year's team selection is not that one pilot wanted to go in 18 and was offered 15 instead. The really screaming issue we saw this year is that pilot after pilot declined the opportunity.. What is going on that so many of our top pilots turn down the chance to go to WGC? Is there anything we can do about that? Or is it just that the IGC itself needs to reform the worlds game to make it more attractive? I'd love to hear from those who turned down the chance as to why they did so.

John Cochrane
  #3  
Old November 6th 17, 08:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 580
Default The US Team selection process in future years

On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 1:21:21 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
The really screaming issue we saw this year is that pilot after pilot declined the opportunity.


Yes, John, I had the same startled reaction. I assume it's money and time. Lots of both are required, I'm told.

I'll take it one step further. Forty years ago, we had only two classes, Open and Standard, before adding 15M, and one world championships held every 2 years. It was a BIG DEAL to get on the U.S. Team (as illustrated by the alleged gaming of the preferential voting system that, among other things, is thought to have denied George Moffat the chance to defend his World Champion title in 1976 in Finland and occasional discussions of a SuperNationals with the top X in each class invited to participate to determine the U.S. Team slots).

With a few exceptions, the same small handful of top U.S. pilots returned to the World Championships time after time.

I'm only half kidding when I say that I'm not sure how many classes we have now (7?) or how many world championships there are (at least one a year, sometimes 2). But the word "proliferation" comes to mind. And arguably the number of serious competitors has shrunk (although the dramatic decrease in nationals attendance probably owes as much to class proliferation as to declining participation). As a result, the pool of U.S. Team members seems to have expanded. I don't want to say it's easier to get on the Team. But it does seem that way.

I'll defer to John when it comes to economic theory but I wonder if the declining "price of admission" to qualifying for the U.S. Team might spur demand for it over time, resulting in increased nationals participation by pilots who might otherwise fly a couple of regionals instead. This could be exacerbated (enhanced?) by the fact that pilots would have to commit a lot of time and personal funds to accept an invitation, thus reducing demand and prompting many to decline.

Chip Bearden


  #4  
Old November 6th 17, 08:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Posts: 351
Default The US Team selection process in future years

Good post Chip, but it turns out that it's not true that we just send the same pilots over and over again. A few stalwarts (masochists?) like Gary Ittner have done it many times, but you just notice them. Most pilots on US teams have gone to exactly one WGC, and most US team slots have been to pilots who went once. One problem the US team is trying to solve is the consequent loss of knowledge and experience. I'm an example, I went once, learned a lot, but all that experience is lost. Most of the team I went with (Kelly, Tyler, Elliot) went once, only Elliot going again, and that to Uvalde. It cost north of $35,000 and that was 2010.

I wonder if other teams are having this difficulty. Also knowing we're one step behind on the technology side before we show up can't help.

John Cochrane
  #5  
Old November 6th 17, 10:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default The US Team selection process in future years

On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 2:21:13 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
Good post Chip, but it turns out that it's not true that we just send the same pilots over and over again.


Sorry, John, I thought I was clear in referring to the old days when the teams comprised George Moffat, Dick Johnson, AJ Smith, Dick Schreder, and a handful of others. Just for kicks, I went to http://www.ssa.org/USTeam?show=blog&id=2128 and checked out the teams for the years of my youth. In the 9 world championships between 1960 and 1978, only 14 different pilots filled 34 of the team slots. Dick Johnson went 8 times followed by Schreder, AJ, and Moffat with 4 times each. It's perhaps no coincidence that the latter two garnered 3 of America's 5 world championships, each of them winning the 2nd time around (and 4th, in Moffat's case).

In 2012, by contrast (the last "big championship" year on this page), the U..S. Team comprised 11 pilots just for this year alone!

FWIW, at least two of those pilots declined invitations to participate in this year's selection. So I'll stay with my tentative conclusions that it's "easier" to get on a U.S. Team (which might have the effect of attracting pilots to national contests) while agreeing with you that the cost and time might discourage pilots from doing so more than once or twice. As you point out, that's bad for U.S. Team prospects over time.

Interestingly, only 3 of the 12 (twelve!) pilots who participated with you in 2010 showed up two years later, but I don't know how much of that was team selection vs. cost/time. If cost is the big inhibitor, the solution is simple: just raise more funding for the Team!

Chip Bearden
  #6  
Old November 6th 17, 10:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
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Posts: 483
Default The US Team selection process in future years

On Monday, 6 November 2017 14:27:39 UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, November 6, 2017 at 2:21:13 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
Good post Chip, but it turns out that it's not true that we just send the same pilots over and over again.


Sorry, John, I thought I was clear in referring to the old days when the teams comprised George Moffat, Dick Johnson, AJ Smith, Dick Schreder, and a handful of others. Just for kicks, I went to http://www.ssa.org/USTeam?show=blog&id=2128 and checked out the teams for the years of my youth. In the 9 world championships between 1960 and 1978, only 14 different pilots filled 34 of the team slots. Dick Johnson went 8 times followed by Schreder, AJ, and Moffat with 4 times each. It's perhaps no coincidence that the latter two garnered 3 of America's 5 world championships, each of them winning the 2nd time around (and 4th, in Moffat's case).

In 2012, by contrast (the last "big championship" year on this page), the U.S. Team comprised 11 pilots just for this year alone!

FWIW, at least two of those pilots declined invitations to participate in this year's selection. So I'll stay with my tentative conclusions that it's "easier" to get on a U.S. Team (which might have the effect of attracting pilots to national contests) while agreeing with you that the cost and time might discourage pilots from doing so more than once or twice. As you point out, that's bad for U.S. Team prospects over time.

Interestingly, only 3 of the 12 (twelve!) pilots who participated with you in 2010 showed up two years later, but I don't know how much of that was team selection vs. cost/time. If cost is the big inhibitor, the solution is simple: just raise more funding for the Team!

Chip Bearden


Another factor may be the short time to prepare and plan for 2018 events. With the change in selection process, the folks going to the 2018 events have 9 months or less to prepare, line up equipment, housing etc etc.

Previously the individuals were selected 18+ months advance, providing time to even attend the pre-worlds if they so desired.

The new selection process could have started after Uvalde and provided a couple of more months.
  #7  
Old November 7th 17, 06:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Michael Opitz
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Posts: 318
Default The US Team selection process in future years

At 18:21 06 November 2017, John Cochrane wrote:
The really interesting thing about this year's team selection is

not that one pilot wanted to go in 18 and was offered 15 instead.
The really screaming issue we saw this year is that pilot after
pilot declined the opportunity.. What is going on that so many of
our top pilots turn down the chance to go to WGC? Is there
anything we can do about that? Or is it just that the IGC itself
needs to reform the worlds game to make it more attractive? I'd
love to hear from those who turned down the chance as to why
they did so.
John Cochrane


The first US team which was selected by objective performance
was picked in 1984 for the 1985 Rieti Italy WGC. The members
we
Ray Gimmey - Open
Doug Jacobs -15m
John Seaborn -15m
Eric Mozer- Std
Mike Opitz-Std (myself)

The results were the best that Team USA has had in quite a while.
DJ won in 15m using "lone eagle" tactics. John Seaborn had a lot
of troubles and wound up at 33rd....
Ray wound up in 7th place in Open. Eric and I flew as a team
and finished 3rd and 5th.
So, we had mixed good results between "lone eagle" and team
tactics. This was before the other National teams really started to
aggressively train in team and pair flying tactics. All team member
expenses were covered by the SSA through member donations and
the raffle sale of a glider. (SSA membership = ~16K people)

The team for 1987 Benalla Australia, and results we
Ray Gimmey - Open -11
Doug Jacobs - 15m - 3
Eric Mozer - 15m - 15
Mike Opitz -Std - 2
John Byrd - Std -11
The other nations were now starting to aggressively train in team
flying. The French team finished right behind me in Std. Our
Open and 15m flew pretty much as "lone eagles".
John Byrd and I flew team. The only reason John did not finish
next to me was that we got split up on two critical days, and he
lost out each time that happened. Compared to recent results,
these results were not bad with 2 podium finishes. The SSA was
able to fully fund the team through the same fund raising as in
1985.

The team for 1989 Wiener Neustadt Austria and results we
Ray Gimmey - Open - 9
Ron Tabery - Open - 14
Doug Jacobs - 15m - 11
Karl Striedieck -15m - 17
Mike Opitz - Std - 18
John Byrd - STD - 16
John Byrd and I flew team, and the others were all "lone eagles".
The first 2 days were flown in very weak conditions into (newly
opened from the Soviet block) Hungary, which proved difficult
for all of us. The rest of the contest was in the Alps where local
knowledge became a big player. The French, German and British
teams had all been training very hard in team flying tactics by
then, and the results reflected that training. Again, the SSA was
able to fully fund all team member expenses through similar fund
raising activities.

You will notice that as the other Nations aggressively trained in
team flying over that 4 year period, the US team's performance
dropped, and kept falling for quite a while to follow.

I qualified for the US team again for 1995 Omarama New Zealand.
I was #5 out of 9 pilots. By that time, fund raising was starting
to go down, and the number of team members was up to 9 pilots
now - for a contest 1/2 the way around the world. The SSA
decided that they could only fully fund 4 team members, so #5-#9
were on their own to totally self fund. I had to decline my slot
as I could not afford the estimated ~$15,000 cost at that time.

I qualified for the US team again for 2001 Mafeking South Africa.
By then, funding was a real problem. There was the regular WGC
plus Club, World, 18m, Junior Class WGC's as well - including 5
team managers totaling 21 people plus crews who wanted
funding. I figured that it would now cost me ~$15,000 to self
fund what the SSA would not cover, so I declined again as I
could not afford it.

Now, I have qualified as an alternate for WGC 2018 Poland in Club
Class, and am declining that for financial reasons as well. Had
I been selected #1 or #2, I might have tried to see if someone
in Europe would be willing to swap gliders (and tow cars for equal
time periods) with me in order to reduce costs. The SSA funding
for Poland will only be for entry and tow fees. To stand by "just
in case" translates into ~$20.000 estimated out of pocket
expenses if called to go on short notice. US team members paid
between $20,000 and $30,000 out of pocket each for past WGC
contests in Lithuania and Finland.

For the Europeans, they can just hook their gliders onto their cars
and drive to the WGC's about 75% of the time. They don't have
to deal with ocean freight like we do almost continually. A lot of
them camp out in caravans at the contest to save expenses as
well. The Aussies, Kiwis, South Africans, and Canadians are in
much the same boat that we in the USA are, and it would be
interesting to see how they handle the funding and logistics
issues.

On top of all of that, the USA is a big country, and it is hard to get
team members together to train in team flying over those huge
distances. Most European nations are only geographically as large
as one of our 50 States, so it is easier for them to practice
together.

Lots of problems and issues. I don't have the answers either. We
are dealing with a world wide decline in interest in our sport. At
our home airfield in upstate NY, we are struggling to find new
members to replace the older group which is now aging out of
the sport.... As membership declines, WGC team funding does as
well. We may need to eliminate some FAI classes or somehow
reduce the numbers of folks that have a shot at getting a piece
of the funding pie. If one is good enough to be selected every
two years, one had better be rich if they plan to go to every
WGC. Right now, it appears that pilots who presently get to
go - compete in one or two WGC's and then say "been there,
done that, got the T-shirt, and I can't afford to keep doing
this..."

RO





  #8  
Old November 7th 17, 12:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 478
Default The US Team selection process in future years

Hold the WGC in America. Make the Europeans take a boat.
  #10  
Old November 7th 17, 04:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Posts: 504
Default The US Team selection process in future years

On 11/6/2017 10:47 PM, Michael Opitz wrote:
At 18:21 06 November 2017, John Cochrane wrote:
The really interesting thing about this year's team selection is

not that one pilot wanted to go in 18 and was offered 15 instead.
The really screaming issue we saw this year is that pilot after
pilot declined the opportunity.. What is going on that so many of
our top pilots turn down the chance to go to WGC? Is there
anything we can do about that? Or is it just that the IGC itself
needs to reform the worlds game to make it more attractive? I'd
love to hear from those who turned down the chance as to why
they did so.
John Cochrane


The first US team which was selected by objective performance
was picked in 1984 for the 1985 Rieti Italy WGC. The members
we
Ray Gimmey - Open
Doug Jacobs -15m
John Seaborn -15m
Eric Mozer- Std
Mike Opitz-Std (myself)

The results were the best that Team USA has had in quite a while.
DJ won in 15m using "lone eagle" tactics. John Seaborn had a lot
of troubles and wound up at 33rd....
Ray wound up in 7th place in Open. Eric and I flew as a team
and finished 3rd and 5th.
So, we had mixed good results between "lone eagle" and team
tactics. This was before the other National teams really started to
aggressively train in team and pair flying tactics. All team member
expenses were covered by the SSA through member donations and
the raffle sale of a glider. (SSA membership = ~16K people)

The team for 1987 Benalla Australia, and results we
Ray Gimmey - Open -11
Doug Jacobs - 15m - 3
Eric Mozer - 15m - 15
Mike Opitz -Std - 2
John Byrd - Std -11
The other nations were now starting to aggressively train in team
flying. The French team finished right behind me in Std. Our
Open and 15m flew pretty much as "lone eagles".
John Byrd and I flew team. The only reason John did not finish
next to me was that we got split up on two critical days, and he
lost out each time that happened. Compared to recent results,
these results were not bad with 2 podium finishes. The SSA was
able to fully fund the team through the same fund raising as in
1985.

The team for 1989 Wiener Neustadt Austria and results we
Ray Gimmey - Open - 9
Ron Tabery - Open - 14
Doug Jacobs - 15m - 11
Karl Striedieck -15m - 17
Mike Opitz - Std - 18
John Byrd - STD - 16
John Byrd and I flew team, and the others were all "lone eagles".
The first 2 days were flown in very weak conditions into (newly
opened from the Soviet block) Hungary, which proved difficult
for all of us. The rest of the contest was in the Alps where local
knowledge became a big player. The French, German and British
teams had all been training very hard in team flying tactics by
then, and the results reflected that training. Again, the SSA was
able to fully fund all team member expenses through similar fund
raising activities.

You will notice that as the other Nations aggressively trained in
team flying over that 4 year period, the US team's performance
dropped, and kept falling for quite a while to follow.

I qualified for the US team again for 1995 Omarama New Zealand.
I was #5 out of 9 pilots. By that time, fund raising was starting
to go down, and the number of team members was up to 9 pilots
now - for a contest 1/2 the way around the world. The SSA
decided that they could only fully fund 4 team members, so #5-#9
were on their own to totally self fund. I had to decline my slot
as I could not afford the estimated ~$15,000 cost at that time.

I qualified for the US team again for 2001 Mafeking South Africa.
By then, funding was a real problem. There was the regular WGC
plus Club, World, 18m, Junior Class WGC's as well - including 5
team managers totaling 21 people plus crews who wanted
funding. I figured that it would now cost me ~$15,000 to self
fund what the SSA would not cover, so I declined again as I
could not afford it.

Now, I have qualified as an alternate for WGC 2018 Poland in Club
Class, and am declining that for financial reasons as well. Had
I been selected #1 or #2, I might have tried to see if someone
in Europe would be willing to swap gliders (and tow cars for equal
time periods) with me in order to reduce costs. The SSA funding
for Poland will only be for entry and tow fees. To stand by "just
in case" translates into ~$20.000 estimated out of pocket
expenses if called to go on short notice. US team members paid
between $20,000 and $30,000 out of pocket each for past WGC
contests in Lithuania and Finland.

For the Europeans, they can just hook their gliders onto their cars
and drive to the WGC's about 75% of the time. They don't have
to deal with ocean freight like we do almost continually. A lot of
them camp out in caravans at the contest to save expenses as
well. The Aussies, Kiwis, South Africans, and Canadians are in
much the same boat that we in the USA are, and it would be
interesting to see how they handle the funding and logistics
issues.

On top of all of that, the USA is a big country, and it is hard to get
team members together to train in team flying over those huge
distances. Most European nations are only geographically as large
as one of our 50 States, so it is easier for them to practice
together.

Lots of problems and issues. I don't have the answers either. We
are dealing with a world wide decline in interest in our sport. At
our home airfield in upstate NY, we are struggling to find new
members to replace the older group which is now aging out of
the sport.... As membership declines, WGC team funding does as
well. We may need to eliminate some FAI classes or somehow
reduce the numbers of folks that have a shot at getting a piece
of the funding pie. If one is good enough to be selected every
two years, one had better be rich if they plan to go to every
WGC. Right now, it appears that pilots who presently get to
go - compete in one or two WGC's and then say "been there,
done that, got the T-shirt, and I can't afford to keep doing
this..."

RO


Great stuff - thanks for researching and writing this up!!! Clearly (to me,
anyway), the goal of "selecting for winning" encompasses lots beyond "mere
pilot selection."

Bob W.

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