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WeserFlug P.1003 Compared to V-22 Osprey



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 1st 03, 11:07 AM
The Enlightenment
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Chad Irby wrote in message . com...
In article ,
(The Enlightenment) wrote:

Chad Irby wrote in message
. com...
In article ,
(The Enlightenment) wrote:

Chad Irby wrote in message
. com...


Nope. Velocity is velocity, and coming in out of vacuum means those
steel wings are just little flanges out in the Mach-20 airflow waiting
to be melted - or broken off altogether.

Nope. There is someting called a hypersonic L/D (lift to drag ratio).

Yes, there is. And it tells us why those wings would have melted off.
To get enough lift to bounce the Silverbird out of the atmosphere again,
you have to deal with the drag of having it in the atmosphere for a few
minutes. Certainly long enough and hot enough to melt those little
steel wings, as demonstrated by the short X-15 flights with even tougher
alloys at lower speeds.


Thus the Germans had alloys similar to inconel that melted at 1450C
and opperated at 750C as turbine blades. These were inferior in creep
strength but not melting point.


So in other words, even if they used those alloys, the plane would have
come apart or deformed, or he would have had to build them out of much
thicker pieces of metal.


No. You don't understand creep strength. The rate of creep is not
such that it should deform significanty and as I point out Sanger's
silver bird re-enetered at far less than orbital velocity.

All hypersonic aircraft, like the SR71 irrespective of material don't
have fatique problems becuase the heat effectively heat treates
(aneals) any work hardening metal. Titanium, inconel, austenitic
steels all are the same.



I'd say their metalurgy were good enough for Silverbird.


Too bad they never got around to using it. Once again, the design for
the Silverbird had *nothing* in it about high-temp metals - just plain
old stainless steel, which you finally admit is not good enough, after
trying to claim that boiler-type stainless was good enough.


Duh, Stainless steel IS a high temperatue alloy. The chromium
isolates the carbon (which can come out of solution) as chromium
carbide.

There were several German companies around at the time that could
produce high temperature refractory alloys and sold them commercialy.

The problem with the chromium steels was that their characteritics
fell of more rapidly than the nickel alloys over 600C. By the time we
get to around 1000C things are evening up again. At 1400C both are
melting.



Sangers work on re-entry was pioneering and very respectable.


He did almost *zero* work on re-entry. With the machinery he had
available, all he could do was very short tests on shockwave formation.

He did Hypersonic wind tunnel testing.


...on tiny little models of the Silverbird, for less than 30 seconds at
a time, with *no* heat testing, and could not have done any different
with the equipment he had during the war.


Thirty seconds (even 30 milliseconds) is plenty of time to get L/D
ratio data, stability data, center of pressure data and to use
Schlierian photography to image shock waves and to place a few
thermocouples in the model.

You assume NASA tested the shuttle near full scale at hypersonic
speeds.

Clearly the Silver bird concept allowed incremental testing and
development at progressively higher speeds. In many ways it was a
highly testable designe. Everything from sled acceleration, Sled
seperation, and rocket motor lightup at progressively higher speeds.
  #22  
Old December 1st 03, 12:11 PM
Keith Willshaw
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"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
om...


All hypersonic aircraft, like the SR71 irrespective of material don't
have fatique problems becuase the heat effectively heat treates
(aneals) any work hardening metal. Titanium, inconel, austenitic
steels all are the same.



Complete and utter cobblers

The normal stress relief temperature for titanium is around 1000 F
and the annealing temperature is closer to 1300 F

source:
Titanium Metals Corporation
Titanium Design and Fabrication Handbook for Industrial Applications

Keith


  #23  
Old December 1st 03, 02:18 PM
The Enlightenment
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
om...


All hypersonic aircraft, like the SR71 irrespective of material

don't
have fatique problems becuase the heat effectively heat treates
(aneals) any work hardening metal. Titanium, inconel, austenitic
steels all are the same.



Complete and utter cobblers


A statement that is complete hyperbole.



The normal stress relief temperature for titanium is around 1000 F
and the annealing temperature is closer to 1300 F

source:
Titanium Metals Corporation
Titanium Design and Fabrication Handbook for Industrial Applications

Keith



This web site recommends a 2 hour holding temperature as low as 500C
for stress relief heat treatment.
http://www.deutschetitan.de/eng/profi/kb6.html

The SR71 achieves a temperature of between 300C and 450C in localised
areas that Janes listed in 1974 while many web sites speak of 1100F as
the Blackbirds skin temperature. This is well withing the heat
treatment range though short of the full annealing I claimed.

The article I read regarding this effect seemed quite plausible and of
positive benefit.


  #24  
Old December 1st 03, 03:26 PM
robert arndt
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I have had my fill of Nazi "wonder weapons" and secrets still kept.

But the DoD, USAF, CIA, etc... have not. German weapon systems from
1945 are still classified and there is much evidence that links the
Third Reich's radical aircraft projects to US postwar projects
culminating in the black projects operating today. Therefore that
information is kept classified, restricted, compartmentalized.

The U.S. , U.K., U.S.S.R., Japan and everyone else was working on fantastical
and strange projects that defy belief also.
Just like the Nazis most of the wackier ideas never got beyond the proposal
stage.


True, but the US relationship with the UK allowed much of Allied
technology to be shared. Japan's advanced weapons programs were
negligible except for the question of the Japanese atomic bomb
program, which also remains a mystery. The U.S.S.R. OTOH was seen as
an enemy and there was considerable amount of spying done postwar to
learn what the Russians had captured from the Germans and what the
Germans were developing for them. History shows that Russia's military
and space programs benefitted nicely from German technology.
In regards to disc aircraft, the US percieved threat was real.
Everything from the Ghost Rockets of '46 forward was seen as an
attempt by the Russians to develop this type of craft. However, the
U.S.S.R. followed a strict quantity over quality development program
that set their aircraft industry back significantly. One can only look
at their X-planes of the time to see that the technical ability was
there but that Stalin and subsequent Soviet leaders prohibited
advanced, costly aircraft to be developed... no matter what threat
from the US emerged.

The Nazis didn't even heve the metals to make reliable jet engines.


That's my point. The SS Technical Branch was in charge of developing
everything from synthetic fuels to advanced metallurgy to military
prefabrication methods to disc aircraft. The task was to invent and
develop a wide range of radical secret weapons that would stop the
daily bombardment of Germany and increase war production. The scary
thing is that they were making advances back then that rival
developments right now. The British for their part captured much of
the advanced SS components without the understanding of what the
technology was for or how it worked. Han's Coler's free energy machine
is a prime example. The British captured the documents and Coler built
a test machine for them. The machine did produce energy but the
British BIOS report of the experimentation says, "how it generates
energy is NOT known". Isn't that nice?
Same thing for the Thule Triebwereke except that this technology was
passed over to the US that conducted its own experiments and made
breakthroughs that eventually were moved from Wright Field, to
Edwards, to Area 51.

It is just amazing at the programs the SS were working on. Very few
people even know that the SS had a Technical Branch or of any of the
more advanced weapon systems. Speer's "Infiltration" opens the door to
that research and I have never found any other source that describes
these programs in detail. German secret weapons books first became
updated in the late 1970s. In the '80s and '90s the books became much
better due to Schiffer's German connection and the fact that the E.
German and Russian archives were opened. Further declassification of
some military documents and admission by the DoD and USAF over the
German discs has helped the picture to become much clearer. However,
the most sensitive documentation (which most likely includes photos,
timelines, and flight performances) remain heavily classified.

I'm just hoping that I live long enough for this material to see the
light of day again.

Rob

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

  #25  
Old December 1st 03, 04:55 PM
Keith Willshaw
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"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
om...


All hypersonic aircraft, like the SR71 irrespective of material

don't
have fatique problems becuase the heat effectively heat treates
(aneals) any work hardening metal. Titanium, inconel, austenitic
steels all are the same.



Complete and utter cobblers


A statement that is complete hyperbole.


No one that comes from extensive expeience in welding and
fabricating titanium structures.



The normal stress relief temperature for titanium is around 1000 F
and the annealing temperature is closer to 1300 F

source:
Titanium Metals Corporation
Titanium Design and Fabrication Handbook for Industrial Applications

Keith



This web site recommends a 2 hour holding temperature as low as 500C
for stress relief heat treatment.
http://www.deutschetitan.de/eng/profi/kb6.html


Only for commercially pure titanium and that is the absolute bottom end of
the scale for stress relief only.

Your claim was that annealing occurs , the data table you provided
recommends a temperature of 700 Deg C ( for soft annealing of
CP Ti and 730 for commercial alloys. In other words around
1300 deg. F as I stated.

Even stress relief of usable alloys requires a minimum temperature
of 1000 F and that needs to be an EVEN distribution if thermal
stresses are not to be induced


The SR71 achieves a temperature of between 300C and 450C in localised
areas that Janes listed in 1974 while many web sites speak of 1100F as
the Blackbirds skin temperature. This is well withing the heat
treatment range though short of the full annealing I claimed.


Any article that claims SR-71 skin temperatures reach 1100 F is
less than believeable. NASA refer to max sustained temperatures
of around 600F on their aircraft

The article I read regarding this effect seemed quite plausible and of
positive benefit.


Given the differences in temperature between different parts of the
aircraft and the resultant thermal stresses this hardly seems like to
be a positive benefit, then there's the little matter of the scaling and
oxidation that occur at annealing temperatures unless one maintains
an inert atmosphere.

Keith


  #26  
Old December 1st 03, 05:38 PM
Keith Willshaw
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Posts: n/a
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"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...


The SR71 achieves a temperature of between 300C and 450C in localised
areas that Janes listed in 1974 while many web sites speak of 1100F as
the Blackbirds skin temperature. This is well withing the heat
treatment range though short of the full annealing I claimed.


Having bothered to look up the values in the company materials database
I find that the maximum permissible stress for Titanium alloys complying
with
ASTM-B3777-7 reaches zero at a temperature of 346 C. While this
is doubtless conservative it does graphically show the loss in structural
strength of the material at relatively low temperatures.

Even the most heat resistant of titanium alloys such as 6l-4V is only good
for around 800 deg F (430 C) and at that point its
load bearing properties are gravely compromised with a
maximum life expectancy of 1000 hrs requiring a stress
level of no more than 25% of that available at room temperature.

In short were the airframe hot enough for annealing to occur
it would fall apart under the stresses of supersonic flight.

Keith


  #27  
Old December 1st 03, 05:38 PM
Chad Irby
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In article ,
(The Enlightenment) wrote:

No. You don't understand creep strength. The rate of creep is not
such that it should deform significanty and as I point out Sanger's
silver bird re-enetered at far less than orbital velocity.


I understand it quite well, thank you, the problem is that you're
severely underestimating both the heat and stress on the Silverbird (as
I've pointed out about a half-dozen times so far).

All hypersonic aircraft, like the SR71 irrespective of material don't
have fatique problems becuase the heat effectively heat treates
(aneals) any work hardening metal. Titanium, inconel, austenitic
steels all are the same.


The problem isn't long term fatigue, it's short term falling apart
because it gets really bloody hot in a very short period of time. The
high wing loading of the Silverbird would just make things worse, and
comparing it to an SR-71 (made out of tougher alloys) that flew about
1/4 the speed is just sad.

Duh, Stainless steel IS a high temperatue alloy.


The one you quoted as your first example (boiler-type stainless) is
*not*, in this case high-temp enough, by about 600 or 700 degrees.

There were several German companies around at the time that could
produce high temperature refractory alloys and sold them commercialy.


....and that might have been enough, if the plans had called for
high-temp alloys. They did not, as you've been ignoring. PLain old
stainless.

He did Hypersonic wind tunnel testing.


...on tiny little models of the Silverbird, for less than 30 seconds at
a time, with *no* heat testing, and could not have done any different
with the equipment he had during the war.


Thirty seconds (even 30 milliseconds) is plenty of time to get L/D
ratio data, stability data, center of pressure data and to use
Schlierian photography to image shock waves and to place a few
thermocouples in the model.


Except that, as photographs of the models have shown (readily available
on the net and in books), there was no place *on* the model to place
thermocouples. They did *not*, again, do this. You can keep hoping
they did, but it's just plain not so. They got the gross aerodynamic
data, but not the sort of detailed stuff they'd need for a successful
program.

You assume NASA tested the shuttle near full scale at hypersonic
speeds.


No, but they tested smaller scale models at hypersonic speeds in all of
the ways that Sanger did *not*, and they had a couple of decades of
practical experimental data (X-15, SR-71, Apollo) on high-speed flight
and reentry.

Clearly the Silver bird concept allowed incremental testing and
development at progressively higher speeds. In many ways it was a
highly testable designe. Everything from sled acceleration, Sled
seperation, and rocket motor lightup at progressively higher speeds.


....and given a decade or so, Sanger might have had a chance to fill in
all of the blanks he didn't do in his first attempt. The Silverbird
was, again, a nifty idea with very little engineering data behind it,
like so many of the German "superweapons" that were never built.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.
  #28  
Old December 2nd 03, 04:28 AM
The Enlightenment
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Default

(robert arndt) wrote in message . com...
As I've mentioned several times, not with the materials they had
available in 1945. Repeating this false assumption does not make it
suddenly become true.

At a "mere" Mach 6, the X-15 skin reached 650 to 700 degrees C, in a
minute and a half of powered flight. This would have happened to the
Sanger several times per mission, with a skin that didn't have the heat
resistance of the X-15's.


You obviously don't know much about the SS Technical Branch and their
work in metallurgy. Documents recovered at Gottingen and Volkenrode
indicate that between 1943-44 the SS were experimenting with a
frictionless metal called "Luftschwamm" (Aerosponge) that could
withstand 1000 degrees Centigrade.


This is no bizzare idea.

I first came across foamed metal while working in Germany in 1992. It
was foamed aluminium used in this case to absorb the energy of car
crash.

Very complicated foams of Aluuminium, Titanium, Nickel and refractory
alloys are possible as sheets or moldings with smooth finishes.
Foaming can be by inert gas but more likely by foaming agents like TiH
or ZiH.

They can be injection molded or formed into sheets. All sorts of
connection methods are possible including welding.

There is a review of the technolgy he
http://nic.sav.sk/ummsjk/main_act.htm

They are at the point where Volvo are using Stainless steel laminates
with metal foam/fiber center cores for use in production cars.

Consider that aircraft skins in WW2 were reaching 5mm thick (B29
bomber)

As a thought experiment immagine a stainless steel laminate consisting
of 0.25mm stainless steel on either side with a 4:1 foamed core. I
would have the same thickness as the aluminium and the same density
but would have much higher stiffnes and strength and would provide
usable strength up to 750C to 1000C for refractory allys. I foaming
of Molydenum becomes possible perhaps 2000C.

The Tinadur alloy Junkers used on the Jumo 004B series Jet was of
Ti,Ni,Cr,Fe and would have leant itself nicely to foaming with TiH.

The heat isolating poperties would be substantial. At least 20 times
that of the equivalent weight of steel.

I imagine that a SSTO, (Single Stage to Orbit) vehicle could be made
in foamed metal in which the structure serves to:
1 Provides Integral Heat Isolating Tankage for Cryogenic Propellants.
(I.E. no
2 Provides Heat Shielding.
3 Provides Strength, Stiffness with a minium of internal structure.
  #29  
Old December 2nd 03, 07:20 AM
B2431
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Compared to V-22 Osprey
From: (robert arndt)
Date: 12/1/2003 8:26 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

I have had my fill of Nazi "wonder weapons" and secrets still kept.


But the DoD, USAF, CIA, etc... have not. German weapon systems from
1945 are still classified and there is much evidence that links the
Third Reich's radical aircraft projects to US postwar projects
culminating in the black projects operating today. Therefore that
information is kept classified, restricted, compartmentalized.

None of which you can prove.

Just like the Nazis most of the wackier ideas never got beyond the proposal
stage.


True, but the US relationship with the UK allowed much of Allied
technology to be shared. Japan's advanced weapons programs were
negligible except for the question of the Japanese atomic bomb
program, which also remains a mystery. The U.S.S.R. OTOH was seen as
an enemy and there was considerable amount of spying done postwar to
learn what the Russians had captured from the Germans and what the
Germans were developing for them. History shows that Russia's military
and space programs benefitted nicely from German technology.
In regards to disc aircraft, the US percieved threat was real.
Everything from the Ghost Rockets of '46 forward was seen as an
attempt by the Russians to develop this type of craft. However, the
U.S.S.R. followed a strict quantity over quality development program
that set their aircraft industry back significantly. One can only look
at their X-planes of the time to see that the technical ability was
there but that Stalin and subsequent Soviet leaders prohibited
advanced, costly aircraft to be developed... no matter what threat
from the US emerged.

snip

Same thing for the Thule Triebwereke except that this technology was
passed over to the US that conducted its own experiments and made
breakthroughs that eventually were moved from Wright Field, to
Edwards, to Area 51.


Why, of COURSE they did, how convienient.

snip more blind idolization of the Super Swine

the most sensitive documentation (which most likely includes photos,
timelines, and flight performances) remain heavily classified.


And you alone know all about this?

I'm just hoping that I live long enough for this material to see the light of

day again.

Rob


Ah yes, the Fourth Reich and you will be yelling "seig heil" louder than the
next guy?

I am not saying there was no Nazi tecnology more advanced than the Allies, but
the SS never produced any super weapons other than the V-2. And that was
designed by an non SS Nazi team. BTW, von Braun didn't invent the liquid fuel
rocket engine or rocket flight. Darn the luck, if your beloved SS had predated
Goddard maybe they would have.

While you are drooling over the SS and their pretty uniforms ask yourself how
many human beings were killed in their experiments and slave labour camps. Then
compare the human suffering vs actual product.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired



  #30  
Old December 2nd 03, 07:23 PM
robert arndt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(B2431) wrote in message ...
Compared to V-22 Osprey
From:
(robert arndt)
Date: 12/1/2003 8:26 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

I have had my fill of Nazi "wonder weapons" and secrets still kept.


But the DoD, USAF, CIA, etc... have not. German weapon systems from
1945 are still classified and there is much evidence that links the
Third Reich's radical aircraft projects to US postwar projects
culminating in the black projects operating today. Therefore that
information is kept classified, restricted, compartmentalized.

None of which you can prove.


Where do you think Jim Wilson of "Popular Mechanics" got his
information from? He obtained both USAF and DoD documents through the
Freedom of Information Act and only after there was a congressional
mandate to declassify some of the older records. The German disc
aircraft and the German engineers that worked on them are firmly
placed here in the US working on similar projects in 1946. You can't
dispute that at all, its documented. The USAF admitted these designs
in the late 1990s but did not furnish any photos, timelines, flight
footage, or the disposition of the aircraft after experimenting with
them and/or replicating them. Doesn't that bother you at all? Why
admit these things and not release ALL of the documentation on them?
Why restrict the rest of the material until 2020- the LONGEST time
period they can legally classify that material?

Just like the Nazis most of the wackier ideas never got beyond the proposal
stage.


True, but the US relationship with the UK allowed much of Allied
technology to be shared. Japan's advanced weapons programs were
negligible except for the question of the Japanese atomic bomb
program, which also remains a mystery. The U.S.S.R. OTOH was seen as
an enemy and there was considerable amount of spying done postwar to
learn what the Russians had captured from the Germans and what the
Germans were developing for them. History shows that Russia's military
and space programs benefitted nicely from German technology.
In regards to disc aircraft, the US percieved threat was real.
Everything from the Ghost Rockets of '46 forward was seen as an
attempt by the Russians to develop this type of craft. However, the
U.S.S.R. followed a strict quantity over quality development program
that set their aircraft industry back significantly. One can only look
at their X-planes of the time to see that the technical ability was
there but that Stalin and subsequent Soviet leaders prohibited
advanced, costly aircraft to be developed... no matter what threat
from the US emerged.

snip


You snip because you have nothing to say about the strange phenomenon
that started in the Baltic (Soviet occupied Peenemunde) in 1946
followed by all the subsequent disc activity that started up the
summer of '47 and which has never abated. It is obvious from what
documents we have and the knowledge of the AVRO disc programs that the
US, UK, and Canada all had disc programs immediately after the war and
that the US suspected the Soviets of the same technology. Yet you have
nothing to say and disregard everyone's programs as fantasy... even
though we now know about Silverbug, Northrop NS-97, the nuclear LRV,
etc...
what's the matter with you? Can't face reality?

Same thing for the Thule Triebwerke except that this technology was
passed over to the US that conducted its own experiments and made
breakthroughs that eventually were moved from Wright Field, to
Edwards, to Area 51.


Why, of COURSE they did, how convienient.


So the Triebwerke's Coler Konverter/Shumann Levitator/heated spinning
mercury sphere operation is far-fetched? The TR-3b ASTRA black
triangle uses a similar approach. It uses a nuclear source instead of
Coler's free energy machine (which was connected to a generator). In
place of the Schumann Levitators it uses three advanced manouvering
rockets. And, like the Triebwerke, utilizes heated spinning mercury to
affect gravity... only the TR-3b uses an accelerator ring to
accomplish that.
If you read the ancient Indian texts of their Vimana flying craft you
will read that it too used mercury to fly. Same concept over thousands
of years. Not impossible just not understood very well.

snip more blind idolization of the Super Swine


No idolization here just commenting on the SS Technical Branch
programs.

the most sensitive documentation (which most likely includes photos,
timelines, and flight performances) remain heavily classified.


And you alone know all about this?


A lot of people know about this and have tried in vain through the
Freedom of Information Act to force the Govt. to explain what strange
aerial phenomenon we have been experiencing since 1946. A big part of
that is covert military aircraft, the exotics originating from Nazi
Germany. You hate to hear that but it is the truth. Funny how you
accept German engineering in missile tech, jet and rocket aircraft,
and space tech... but not with more advanced projects.

I'm just hoping that I live long enough for this material to see the light of

day again.

Rob


Ah yes, the Fourth Reich and you will be yelling "seig heil" louder than the
next guy?


Hardly since being a historical realist and aviation fan does not make
me a fascist.

I am not saying there was no Nazi tecnology more advanced than the Allies, but
the SS never produced any super weapons other than the V-2. And that was
designed by an non SS Nazi team. BTW, von Braun didn't invent the liquid fuel
rocket engine or rocket flight. Darn the luck, if your beloved SS had predated
Goddard maybe they would have.


I never stated otherwise. The SS Technical Branch was TASKED with
improving existing technology AND inventing new technology that would
stop the daily bombing of Germany. Since that affected transportation
too the SS were developing alternative fuels and power generators. The
SS did invent generators that ran off coal and grain alcohol and used
them in their facilities. I'm sure you've seen photos of the coal
engined Kubelwagen and powered searchlights. Other areas were
prefabrication methods, production dispersal, etc... also employed in
late '44-45. But secret weapons were also their mission. They started
early in the war by taking over the German Army's dangerous N-material
production and storage (which has only recently been identified as
CF3). This material was too dangerous to handle in combat and store so
it was destroyed. The SS was also heavily involved in gas research and
sadly tested out new agents on slave laborers from the camps. One gas
captured by the US Third Army was an experimental brown crystalline
desiccator designed to completely dehydrate a person alive. After the
July 1944 bomb plot, the SS was given control over the V-weapons
program and all jet projects. The confusion over the disc aircraft
arises from the fact that those programs predate 1944 and are not in
any connected with the RLM. Himmler was a Thule member and the SS
Technical Branch worked with both the Thule and Vril Societies in
creating occult disc machines based on information obtained by the
mediums Maria Orsitsch and Sigrun through channeling. At Himmler's
castle occult practices took place by the SS Black Sun- their
religious Order that held beliefs exactly the same as the Thule and
Vril Societies. Himmler, therefore, had a fascination with these
occult machines and their mysterious power source. A special
development unit E-4 was created within the Technical Branch to
specifically develop the discs. The work of Coler, Schumann,
Schauberger, and others from Thule and Vril were utilized by the SS
(along with the millions of patents stolen from the occupied
countries) to create these machines.
I know you just want a clear, non-occult picture of these machines but
you cannot seperate the occult from the Third Reich. The NSDAP itself
came from the Thule Society and the Nazi leadership were Thule
members. The NSDAP produced Hitler and Hitler the SS in all its forms.
You keep mentioning the general SS. There was also the Waffen SS, SD,
the Black Sun Order, the DHvSS, the Archeological Branch, and
Technical Branch.
Speer's book attempts to penetrate the entire SS and that is all I
pointed out.

While you are drooling over the SS and their pretty uniforms ask yourself how
many human beings were killed in their experiments and slave labour camps. Then
compare the human suffering vs actual product.


Not necessary at all. Totally uncalled for. It would be great if the
SS weren't involved at all. If Heinkel, Messerschmitt, or Focke Wulf
were tasked with disc development this entire subject wouldn't be
controversial at all.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired


Rob
 




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