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#21
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Chad Irby wrote in message . com...
In article , (The Enlightenment) wrote: Chad Irby wrote in message . com... In article , (The Enlightenment) wrote: Chad Irby wrote in message . com... Nope. Velocity is velocity, and coming in out of vacuum means those steel wings are just little flanges out in the Mach-20 airflow waiting to be melted - or broken off altogether. Nope. There is someting called a hypersonic L/D (lift to drag ratio). Yes, there is. And it tells us why those wings would have melted off. To get enough lift to bounce the Silverbird out of the atmosphere again, you have to deal with the drag of having it in the atmosphere for a few minutes. Certainly long enough and hot enough to melt those little steel wings, as demonstrated by the short X-15 flights with even tougher alloys at lower speeds. Thus the Germans had alloys similar to inconel that melted at 1450C and opperated at 750C as turbine blades. These were inferior in creep strength but not melting point. So in other words, even if they used those alloys, the plane would have come apart or deformed, or he would have had to build them out of much thicker pieces of metal. No. You don't understand creep strength. The rate of creep is not such that it should deform significanty and as I point out Sanger's silver bird re-enetered at far less than orbital velocity. All hypersonic aircraft, like the SR71 irrespective of material don't have fatique problems becuase the heat effectively heat treates (aneals) any work hardening metal. Titanium, inconel, austenitic steels all are the same. I'd say their metalurgy were good enough for Silverbird. Too bad they never got around to using it. Once again, the design for the Silverbird had *nothing* in it about high-temp metals - just plain old stainless steel, which you finally admit is not good enough, after trying to claim that boiler-type stainless was good enough. Duh, Stainless steel IS a high temperatue alloy. The chromium isolates the carbon (which can come out of solution) as chromium carbide. There were several German companies around at the time that could produce high temperature refractory alloys and sold them commercialy. The problem with the chromium steels was that their characteritics fell of more rapidly than the nickel alloys over 600C. By the time we get to around 1000C things are evening up again. At 1400C both are melting. Sangers work on re-entry was pioneering and very respectable. He did almost *zero* work on re-entry. With the machinery he had available, all he could do was very short tests on shockwave formation. He did Hypersonic wind tunnel testing. ...on tiny little models of the Silverbird, for less than 30 seconds at a time, with *no* heat testing, and could not have done any different with the equipment he had during the war. Thirty seconds (even 30 milliseconds) is plenty of time to get L/D ratio data, stability data, center of pressure data and to use Schlierian photography to image shock waves and to place a few thermocouples in the model. You assume NASA tested the shuttle near full scale at hypersonic speeds. Clearly the Silver bird concept allowed incremental testing and development at progressively higher speeds. In many ways it was a highly testable designe. Everything from sled acceleration, Sled seperation, and rocket motor lightup at progressively higher speeds. |
#22
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"The Enlightenment" wrote in message om... All hypersonic aircraft, like the SR71 irrespective of material don't have fatique problems becuase the heat effectively heat treates (aneals) any work hardening metal. Titanium, inconel, austenitic steels all are the same. Complete and utter cobblers The normal stress relief temperature for titanium is around 1000 F and the annealing temperature is closer to 1300 F source: Titanium Metals Corporation Titanium Design and Fabrication Handbook for Industrial Applications Keith |
#23
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... "The Enlightenment" wrote in message om... All hypersonic aircraft, like the SR71 irrespective of material don't have fatique problems becuase the heat effectively heat treates (aneals) any work hardening metal. Titanium, inconel, austenitic steels all are the same. Complete and utter cobblers A statement that is complete hyperbole. The normal stress relief temperature for titanium is around 1000 F and the annealing temperature is closer to 1300 F source: Titanium Metals Corporation Titanium Design and Fabrication Handbook for Industrial Applications Keith This web site recommends a 2 hour holding temperature as low as 500C for stress relief heat treatment. http://www.deutschetitan.de/eng/profi/kb6.html The SR71 achieves a temperature of between 300C and 450C in localised areas that Janes listed in 1974 while many web sites speak of 1100F as the Blackbirds skin temperature. This is well withing the heat treatment range though short of the full annealing I claimed. The article I read regarding this effect seemed quite plausible and of positive benefit. |
#24
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I have had my fill of Nazi "wonder weapons" and secrets still kept.
But the DoD, USAF, CIA, etc... have not. German weapon systems from 1945 are still classified and there is much evidence that links the Third Reich's radical aircraft projects to US postwar projects culminating in the black projects operating today. Therefore that information is kept classified, restricted, compartmentalized. The U.S. , U.K., U.S.S.R., Japan and everyone else was working on fantastical and strange projects that defy belief also. Just like the Nazis most of the wackier ideas never got beyond the proposal stage. True, but the US relationship with the UK allowed much of Allied technology to be shared. Japan's advanced weapons programs were negligible except for the question of the Japanese atomic bomb program, which also remains a mystery. The U.S.S.R. OTOH was seen as an enemy and there was considerable amount of spying done postwar to learn what the Russians had captured from the Germans and what the Germans were developing for them. History shows that Russia's military and space programs benefitted nicely from German technology. In regards to disc aircraft, the US percieved threat was real. Everything from the Ghost Rockets of '46 forward was seen as an attempt by the Russians to develop this type of craft. However, the U.S.S.R. followed a strict quantity over quality development program that set their aircraft industry back significantly. One can only look at their X-planes of the time to see that the technical ability was there but that Stalin and subsequent Soviet leaders prohibited advanced, costly aircraft to be developed... no matter what threat from the US emerged. The Nazis didn't even heve the metals to make reliable jet engines. That's my point. The SS Technical Branch was in charge of developing everything from synthetic fuels to advanced metallurgy to military prefabrication methods to disc aircraft. The task was to invent and develop a wide range of radical secret weapons that would stop the daily bombardment of Germany and increase war production. The scary thing is that they were making advances back then that rival developments right now. The British for their part captured much of the advanced SS components without the understanding of what the technology was for or how it worked. Han's Coler's free energy machine is a prime example. The British captured the documents and Coler built a test machine for them. The machine did produce energy but the British BIOS report of the experimentation says, "how it generates energy is NOT known". Isn't that nice? Same thing for the Thule Triebwereke except that this technology was passed over to the US that conducted its own experiments and made breakthroughs that eventually were moved from Wright Field, to Edwards, to Area 51. It is just amazing at the programs the SS were working on. Very few people even know that the SS had a Technical Branch or of any of the more advanced weapon systems. Speer's "Infiltration" opens the door to that research and I have never found any other source that describes these programs in detail. German secret weapons books first became updated in the late 1970s. In the '80s and '90s the books became much better due to Schiffer's German connection and the fact that the E. German and Russian archives were opened. Further declassification of some military documents and admission by the DoD and USAF over the German discs has helped the picture to become much clearer. However, the most sensitive documentation (which most likely includes photos, timelines, and flight performances) remain heavily classified. I'm just hoping that I live long enough for this material to see the light of day again. Rob Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired |
#25
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"The Enlightenment" wrote in message ... "Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... "The Enlightenment" wrote in message om... All hypersonic aircraft, like the SR71 irrespective of material don't have fatique problems becuase the heat effectively heat treates (aneals) any work hardening metal. Titanium, inconel, austenitic steels all are the same. Complete and utter cobblers A statement that is complete hyperbole. No one that comes from extensive expeience in welding and fabricating titanium structures. The normal stress relief temperature for titanium is around 1000 F and the annealing temperature is closer to 1300 F source: Titanium Metals Corporation Titanium Design and Fabrication Handbook for Industrial Applications Keith This web site recommends a 2 hour holding temperature as low as 500C for stress relief heat treatment. http://www.deutschetitan.de/eng/profi/kb6.html Only for commercially pure titanium and that is the absolute bottom end of the scale for stress relief only. Your claim was that annealing occurs , the data table you provided recommends a temperature of 700 Deg C ( for soft annealing of CP Ti and 730 for commercial alloys. In other words around 1300 deg. F as I stated. Even stress relief of usable alloys requires a minimum temperature of 1000 F and that needs to be an EVEN distribution if thermal stresses are not to be induced The SR71 achieves a temperature of between 300C and 450C in localised areas that Janes listed in 1974 while many web sites speak of 1100F as the Blackbirds skin temperature. This is well withing the heat treatment range though short of the full annealing I claimed. Any article that claims SR-71 skin temperatures reach 1100 F is less than believeable. NASA refer to max sustained temperatures of around 600F on their aircraft The article I read regarding this effect seemed quite plausible and of positive benefit. Given the differences in temperature between different parts of the aircraft and the resultant thermal stresses this hardly seems like to be a positive benefit, then there's the little matter of the scaling and oxidation that occur at annealing temperatures unless one maintains an inert atmosphere. Keith |
#26
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"The Enlightenment" wrote in message ... The SR71 achieves a temperature of between 300C and 450C in localised areas that Janes listed in 1974 while many web sites speak of 1100F as the Blackbirds skin temperature. This is well withing the heat treatment range though short of the full annealing I claimed. Having bothered to look up the values in the company materials database I find that the maximum permissible stress for Titanium alloys complying with ASTM-B3777-7 reaches zero at a temperature of 346 C. While this is doubtless conservative it does graphically show the loss in structural strength of the material at relatively low temperatures. Even the most heat resistant of titanium alloys such as 6l-4V is only good for around 800 deg F (430 C) and at that point its load bearing properties are gravely compromised with a maximum life expectancy of 1000 hrs requiring a stress level of no more than 25% of that available at room temperature. In short were the airframe hot enough for annealing to occur it would fall apart under the stresses of supersonic flight. Keith |
#27
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#29
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Compared to V-22 Osprey
From: (robert arndt) Date: 12/1/2003 8:26 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: I have had my fill of Nazi "wonder weapons" and secrets still kept. But the DoD, USAF, CIA, etc... have not. German weapon systems from 1945 are still classified and there is much evidence that links the Third Reich's radical aircraft projects to US postwar projects culminating in the black projects operating today. Therefore that information is kept classified, restricted, compartmentalized. None of which you can prove. Just like the Nazis most of the wackier ideas never got beyond the proposal stage. True, but the US relationship with the UK allowed much of Allied technology to be shared. Japan's advanced weapons programs were negligible except for the question of the Japanese atomic bomb program, which also remains a mystery. The U.S.S.R. OTOH was seen as an enemy and there was considerable amount of spying done postwar to learn what the Russians had captured from the Germans and what the Germans were developing for them. History shows that Russia's military and space programs benefitted nicely from German technology. In regards to disc aircraft, the US percieved threat was real. Everything from the Ghost Rockets of '46 forward was seen as an attempt by the Russians to develop this type of craft. However, the U.S.S.R. followed a strict quantity over quality development program that set their aircraft industry back significantly. One can only look at their X-planes of the time to see that the technical ability was there but that Stalin and subsequent Soviet leaders prohibited advanced, costly aircraft to be developed... no matter what threat from the US emerged. snip Same thing for the Thule Triebwereke except that this technology was passed over to the US that conducted its own experiments and made breakthroughs that eventually were moved from Wright Field, to Edwards, to Area 51. Why, of COURSE they did, how convienient. snip more blind idolization of the Super Swine the most sensitive documentation (which most likely includes photos, timelines, and flight performances) remain heavily classified. And you alone know all about this? I'm just hoping that I live long enough for this material to see the light of day again. Rob Ah yes, the Fourth Reich and you will be yelling "seig heil" louder than the next guy? I am not saying there was no Nazi tecnology more advanced than the Allies, but the SS never produced any super weapons other than the V-2. And that was designed by an non SS Nazi team. BTW, von Braun didn't invent the liquid fuel rocket engine or rocket flight. Darn the luck, if your beloved SS had predated Goddard maybe they would have. While you are drooling over the SS and their pretty uniforms ask yourself how many human beings were killed in their experiments and slave labour camps. Then compare the human suffering vs actual product. Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired |
#30
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(B2431) wrote in message ...
Compared to V-22 Osprey From: (robert arndt) Date: 12/1/2003 8:26 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: I have had my fill of Nazi "wonder weapons" and secrets still kept. But the DoD, USAF, CIA, etc... have not. German weapon systems from 1945 are still classified and there is much evidence that links the Third Reich's radical aircraft projects to US postwar projects culminating in the black projects operating today. Therefore that information is kept classified, restricted, compartmentalized. None of which you can prove. Where do you think Jim Wilson of "Popular Mechanics" got his information from? He obtained both USAF and DoD documents through the Freedom of Information Act and only after there was a congressional mandate to declassify some of the older records. The German disc aircraft and the German engineers that worked on them are firmly placed here in the US working on similar projects in 1946. You can't dispute that at all, its documented. The USAF admitted these designs in the late 1990s but did not furnish any photos, timelines, flight footage, or the disposition of the aircraft after experimenting with them and/or replicating them. Doesn't that bother you at all? Why admit these things and not release ALL of the documentation on them? Why restrict the rest of the material until 2020- the LONGEST time period they can legally classify that material? Just like the Nazis most of the wackier ideas never got beyond the proposal stage. True, but the US relationship with the UK allowed much of Allied technology to be shared. Japan's advanced weapons programs were negligible except for the question of the Japanese atomic bomb program, which also remains a mystery. The U.S.S.R. OTOH was seen as an enemy and there was considerable amount of spying done postwar to learn what the Russians had captured from the Germans and what the Germans were developing for them. History shows that Russia's military and space programs benefitted nicely from German technology. In regards to disc aircraft, the US percieved threat was real. Everything from the Ghost Rockets of '46 forward was seen as an attempt by the Russians to develop this type of craft. However, the U.S.S.R. followed a strict quantity over quality development program that set their aircraft industry back significantly. One can only look at their X-planes of the time to see that the technical ability was there but that Stalin and subsequent Soviet leaders prohibited advanced, costly aircraft to be developed... no matter what threat from the US emerged. snip You snip because you have nothing to say about the strange phenomenon that started in the Baltic (Soviet occupied Peenemunde) in 1946 followed by all the subsequent disc activity that started up the summer of '47 and which has never abated. It is obvious from what documents we have and the knowledge of the AVRO disc programs that the US, UK, and Canada all had disc programs immediately after the war and that the US suspected the Soviets of the same technology. Yet you have nothing to say and disregard everyone's programs as fantasy... even though we now know about Silverbug, Northrop NS-97, the nuclear LRV, etc... what's the matter with you? Can't face reality? Same thing for the Thule Triebwerke except that this technology was passed over to the US that conducted its own experiments and made breakthroughs that eventually were moved from Wright Field, to Edwards, to Area 51. Why, of COURSE they did, how convienient. So the Triebwerke's Coler Konverter/Shumann Levitator/heated spinning mercury sphere operation is far-fetched? The TR-3b ASTRA black triangle uses a similar approach. It uses a nuclear source instead of Coler's free energy machine (which was connected to a generator). In place of the Schumann Levitators it uses three advanced manouvering rockets. And, like the Triebwerke, utilizes heated spinning mercury to affect gravity... only the TR-3b uses an accelerator ring to accomplish that. If you read the ancient Indian texts of their Vimana flying craft you will read that it too used mercury to fly. Same concept over thousands of years. Not impossible just not understood very well. snip more blind idolization of the Super Swine No idolization here just commenting on the SS Technical Branch programs. the most sensitive documentation (which most likely includes photos, timelines, and flight performances) remain heavily classified. And you alone know all about this? A lot of people know about this and have tried in vain through the Freedom of Information Act to force the Govt. to explain what strange aerial phenomenon we have been experiencing since 1946. A big part of that is covert military aircraft, the exotics originating from Nazi Germany. You hate to hear that but it is the truth. Funny how you accept German engineering in missile tech, jet and rocket aircraft, and space tech... but not with more advanced projects. I'm just hoping that I live long enough for this material to see the light of day again. Rob Ah yes, the Fourth Reich and you will be yelling "seig heil" louder than the next guy? Hardly since being a historical realist and aviation fan does not make me a fascist. I am not saying there was no Nazi tecnology more advanced than the Allies, but the SS never produced any super weapons other than the V-2. And that was designed by an non SS Nazi team. BTW, von Braun didn't invent the liquid fuel rocket engine or rocket flight. Darn the luck, if your beloved SS had predated Goddard maybe they would have. I never stated otherwise. The SS Technical Branch was TASKED with improving existing technology AND inventing new technology that would stop the daily bombing of Germany. Since that affected transportation too the SS were developing alternative fuels and power generators. The SS did invent generators that ran off coal and grain alcohol and used them in their facilities. I'm sure you've seen photos of the coal engined Kubelwagen and powered searchlights. Other areas were prefabrication methods, production dispersal, etc... also employed in late '44-45. But secret weapons were also their mission. They started early in the war by taking over the German Army's dangerous N-material production and storage (which has only recently been identified as CF3). This material was too dangerous to handle in combat and store so it was destroyed. The SS was also heavily involved in gas research and sadly tested out new agents on slave laborers from the camps. One gas captured by the US Third Army was an experimental brown crystalline desiccator designed to completely dehydrate a person alive. After the July 1944 bomb plot, the SS was given control over the V-weapons program and all jet projects. The confusion over the disc aircraft arises from the fact that those programs predate 1944 and are not in any connected with the RLM. Himmler was a Thule member and the SS Technical Branch worked with both the Thule and Vril Societies in creating occult disc machines based on information obtained by the mediums Maria Orsitsch and Sigrun through channeling. At Himmler's castle occult practices took place by the SS Black Sun- their religious Order that held beliefs exactly the same as the Thule and Vril Societies. Himmler, therefore, had a fascination with these occult machines and their mysterious power source. A special development unit E-4 was created within the Technical Branch to specifically develop the discs. The work of Coler, Schumann, Schauberger, and others from Thule and Vril were utilized by the SS (along with the millions of patents stolen from the occupied countries) to create these machines. I know you just want a clear, non-occult picture of these machines but you cannot seperate the occult from the Third Reich. The NSDAP itself came from the Thule Society and the Nazi leadership were Thule members. The NSDAP produced Hitler and Hitler the SS in all its forms. You keep mentioning the general SS. There was also the Waffen SS, SD, the Black Sun Order, the DHvSS, the Archeological Branch, and Technical Branch. Speer's book attempts to penetrate the entire SS and that is all I pointed out. While you are drooling over the SS and their pretty uniforms ask yourself how many human beings were killed in their experiments and slave labour camps. Then compare the human suffering vs actual product. Not necessary at all. Totally uncalled for. It would be great if the SS weren't involved at all. If Heinkel, Messerschmitt, or Focke Wulf were tasked with disc development this entire subject wouldn't be controversial at all. Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired Rob |
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