GAO: Tactical Aircraft: Changing Conditions Drive Need for New F/A-22 Business Case"

Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
Buzzer wrote:

On 18 Mar 2004 22:19:52 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

I don't believe the B-52's were typically down in the weeds during the
sixties, when the force still included a lot of C, D, and F
models--they
were still doing a lot of higher altitude work. Like in Vietnam.

The terrain avoidance radar was not installed until early 1970's
(1973??). This
is not to say you couldn't fly low visually, but I don't believe low
level was
a common practice until the 70s.

Bomb-nav maintainer might disagree with you about when the TA was
installed. (This is just the earliest date I could find..)
http://www.bombnav.org/guestbook.html
"Did infinite T/A alignment long first then 24hrs short method Dec
1962 Carswell AFB TX."

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-52_hist.htm
"Although the new low level requirement would apply to the other SAC
bombers, it would have its greatest impact upon the B-52. To fly the
new attack profile, the B-52C through H models were modified with a
new terrain avoidance radar, an improved radar altimeter, increased
cooling capacity for sustained low altitude operations, modified
equipment mounts, and a general strengthening of the aircraft's
secondary structures. The goal was to permit reliable, all-weather
operation at 500 feet, to avoid detection, and to minimize encounters
with enemy defenses. Low level training for SAC bomber crews began in
the late 1950's, with actual aircraft modification beginning in 1961."

What the man said. BUFDRVR, pull out your copy of Boyne and look up
"Advanced
Capability Radar" in the index. Boyne says the Hs got them first, but
they were
backfit to the D, F and G.

Actually, Guy, the man said the C models also got it.

Boyne doesn't, which was the source I used. He may have missed or forgotten
them, or FAS may be wrong.

FAS as a source is not
infallible, though in this case it remains unclear a sto which models got it
and when they actually got it. If the aircraft did start getting T/A radars
in 1961, it would have taken some time to outfit the remainder of the fleet,
which IIRC was pretty darned big at that time.

Given SAC's priority at the time, I doubt it would take all that long, as our
ICBM force was still mostly Atlas and Titan, and Polaris was just entering
service.

Your list also does not
include the E models, which continued in service until the '69-70 timeframe.

And it should. Brain fart.

Another interesting item is the fact that throughout the sixties a large
number of B-52's retained the silver upper/anti-flash white lower finishes,
which was hardly a very good scheme for a low altitude penetrator. This all
leads me to suspect that the "everything went to low level at the beginning
of the sixties" bit may be another case similar to the old "all the B-29's
stripped their armament per LeMay's orders" story--only partly correct, in
other words.

The low level seems to have started even earlier, perhaps by 1959 which is when
the first BUFF crashed due to structural failure (horizontal stab) while in low
altitude flight. The ACR allowed them to go somewhat lower in worse conditions
in relative safety. Boyne shows the D (presumably with ACR) capable of going
down to 500 feet, the G/H (presumably with EVS) able to go down to 300 ft.

As an aside, RAF Vulcans went over to low-level from mid-63 on, according to the
only source I have handy, Robert Jackson's "V-Bombers," but didn't get their TA
(book says TF, but I'm sceptical) radars until a couple of years later (trials
in 1966, so after that). There were certainly RAF a/c which received the
low-altitude camo before they got the TA radar (I'm looking at pictures of two).

As to repainting the SAC BUFFs, I wonder how critical it was considered, given
their (presumed) night/bad-weather mission and the availability of Hound Dog
(which doesn't seem to have been camo'ed). I suspect repainting was done when
the next scheduled depot overhaul came around, while the radar could be added at
the base itself or during a short depot visit. Painting a BUFF strikes me as a
bit more of an endeavor than painting a fighter, and those usually had to go
through IRAN to get re-painted. I think the Big Belly Ds used in SEA were the
first to get black undersides, with the SIOP dedicated a/c retaining white
undersides but acquiring camo tops. Now you've got me curious as to when the
first camo BUFF appeared. Bob, any idea when you first saw/worked on one?

Guy

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:17:08 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

Actually, Guy, the man said the C models also got it.

Boyne doesn't, which was the source I used. He may have missed or forgotten
them, or FAS may be wrong.

I would think they were not moding the Cs since some were already in
the boneyard. I base that on Glasgow getting one in from the boneyard
around 64/65 for training flights only.

FAS as a source is not
infallible, though in this case it remains unclear a sto which models got it
and when they actually got it. If the aircraft did start getting T/A radars
in 1961, it would have taken some time to outfit the remainder of the fleet,
which IIRC was pretty darned big at that time.

Given SAC's priority at the time, I doubt it would take all that long, as our
ICBM force was still mostly Atlas and Titan, and Polaris was just entering
service.

Your list also does not
include the E models, which continued in service until the '69-70 timeframe.

And it should. Brain fart.

E came out of the factory with TA according to one source on the
internet..

Another interesting item is the fact that throughout the sixties a large
number of B-52's retained the silver upper/anti-flash white lower finishes,
which was hardly a very good scheme for a low altitude penetrator. This all
leads me to suspect that the "everything went to low level at the beginning
of the sixties" bit may be another case similar to the old "all the B-29's
stripped their armament per LeMay's orders" story--only partly correct, in
other words.

The low level seems to have started even earlier, perhaps by 1959 which is when
the first BUFF crashed due to structural failure (horizontal stab) while in low
altitude flight. The ACR allowed them to go somewhat lower in worse conditions
in relative safety. Boyne shows the D (presumably with ACR) capable of going
down to 500 feet, the G/H (presumably with EVS) able to go down to 300 ft.

500 ft. was mentioned at the crash site of the B-52D in NE Montana in
1965. There was a B-52D off in the distance that was going to fly the
profile of the one that crashed (hopefully he was going to clear the
hill though!). I missed out on the thing roaring overhead because they
cancelled due to weather.

As an aside, RAF Vulcans went over to low-level from mid-63 on, according to the
only source I have handy, Robert Jackson's "V-Bombers," but didn't get their TA
(book says TF, but I'm sceptical) radars until a couple of years later (trials
in 1966, so after that). There were certainly RAF a/c which received the
low-altitude camo before they got the TA radar (I'm looking at pictures of two).

As to repainting the SAC BUFFs, I wonder how critical it was considered, given
their (presumed) night/bad-weather mission and the availability of Hound Dog
(which doesn't seem to have been camo'ed).

No camo Dogs or aircraft at Fairchild when we were TDY there from
Glasgow in 1964? Glasgow never carried Dogs. Just BIG bombs until Big
Belly.

I suspect repainting was done when
the next scheduled depot overhaul came around, while the radar could be added at
the base itself or during a short depot visit. Painting a BUFF strikes me as a
bit more of an endeavor than painting a fighter, and those usually had to go
through IRAN to get re-painted. I think the Big Belly Ds used in SEA were the
first to get black undersides, with the SIOP dedicated a/c retaining white
undersides but acquiring camo tops.
Now you've got me curious as to when the
first camo BUFF appeared. Bob, any idea when you first saw/worked on one?

Ds at Glasgow came out of Big Belly black. Probably first one around
1965. Wing deployed to SEA around Sep 1966 so they must have done the
wing by then.

I think the upper camo on the H was in place when I went back to SAC
around 1976 at K.I.

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
.. .
Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
Buzzer wrote:

On 18 Mar 2004 22:19:52 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

I don't believe the B-52's were typically down in the weeds during
the
sixties, when the force still included a lot of C, D, and F
models--they
were still doing a lot of higher altitude work. Like in Vietnam.

The terrain avoidance radar was not installed until early 1970's
(1973??). This
is not to say you couldn't fly low visually, but I don't believe
low
level was
a common practice until the 70s.

Bomb-nav maintainer might disagree with you about when the TA was
installed. (This is just the earliest date I could find..)
http://www.bombnav.org/guestbook.html
"Did infinite T/A alignment long first then 24hrs short method Dec
1962 Carswell AFB TX."

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-52_hist.htm
"Although the new low level requirement would apply to the other SAC
bombers, it would have its greatest impact upon the B-52. To fly the
new attack profile, the B-52C through H models were modified with a
new terrain avoidance radar, an improved radar altimeter, increased
cooling capacity for sustained low altitude operations, modified
equipment mounts, and a general strengthening of the aircraft's
secondary structures. The goal was to permit reliable, all-weather
operation at 500 feet, to avoid detection, and to minimize
encounters
with enemy defenses. Low level training for SAC bomber crews began
in
the late 1950's, with actual aircraft modification beginning in
1961."

What the man said. BUFDRVR, pull out your copy of Boyne and look up
"Advanced
Capability Radar" in the index. Boyne says the Hs got them first, but
they were
backfit to the D, F and G.

Actually, Guy, the man said the C models also got it.

Boyne doesn't, which was the source I used. He may have missed or
forgotten
them, or FAS may be wrong.

My point is that the sources all seem to differ, so making any concrete
assessment is a bit difficult as yet. From what I gather the C models were
still flying operationally (versus the training birds) as late as the
mid-sixties; their ability to perform down in the weeds has not been
conclusively established.


FAS as a source is not
infallible, though in this case it remains unclear a sto which models
got it
and when they actually got it. If the aircraft did start getting T/A
radars
in 1961, it would have taken some time to outfit the remainder of the
fleet,
which IIRC was pretty darned big at that time.

Given SAC's priority at the time, I doubt it would take all that long, as
our
ICBM force was still mostly Atlas and Titan, and Polaris was just entering
service.

In 1961 there were some 571 B-52's in service (
http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab7.asp ), and by the following year
that had climbed to some 673; I doubt that any major program such as the
addition of a TA radar was completed in a period of less than three or four
years at best for a force of that size (just based upon the '61 size); doing
it in two years would have required a modification rate of nearly one
aircraft per day, sevven days a week, fifty-two weeks a year.


Your list also does not
include the E models, which continued in service until the '69-70
timeframe.

And it should. Brain fart.

Another interesting item is the fact that throughout the sixties a large
number of B-52's retained the silver upper/anti-flash white lower
finishes,
which was hardly a very good scheme for a low altitude penetrator. This
all
leads me to suspect that the "everything went to low level at the
beginning
of the sixties" bit may be another case similar to the old "all the
B-29's
stripped their armament per LeMay's orders" story--only partly correct,
in
other words.

The low level seems to have started even earlier, perhaps by 1959 which is
when
the first BUFF crashed due to structural failure (horizontal stab) while
in low
altitude flight.

That is when a couple of sources indicate the *training* of B-52 crews in
low level operations began; those same two sources indicate that the
modification work to the aircraft did not start until 1961. A site i ran
across had a story posted by a former BUFF crewmember from that era, and all
he said was that they began to fly low-altitude work "in the early sixties";
unless he was in one of the last crews to make that transition, then it
appears the high altitude work was still ongoing. There was also an airframe
modification program initiated to strengthen the structure so that it could
absorb the increasedfatigue loads of low altitude work--I have not seen any
indication of when that effort was completed, either, or whether it ever
addressed either the C or E models.

The ACR allowed them to go somewhat lower in worse conditions
in relative safety. Boyne shows the D (presumably with ACR) capable of
going
down to 500 feet, the G/H (presumably with EVS) able to go down to 300 ft.

As an aside, RAF Vulcans went over to low-level from mid-63 on, according
to the
only source I have handy, Robert Jackson's "V-Bombers," but didn't get
their TA
(book says TF, but I'm sceptical) radars until a couple of years later
(trials
in 1966, so after that). There were certainly RAF a/c which received the
low-altitude camo before they got the TA radar (I'm looking at pictures of
two).

As to repainting the SAC BUFFs, I wonder how critical it was considered,
given
their (presumed) night/bad-weather mission and the availability of Hound
Dog
(which doesn't seem to have been camo'ed).

I never knew SAC was restricting its operations to night/adverse weather :-)
.. I have seen some photos of camo'd Hound Dog's, presumably from their later
years in service.

I suspect repainting was done when
the next scheduled depot overhaul came around, while the radar could be
added at
the base itself or during a short depot visit. Painting a BUFF strikes me
as a
bit more of an endeavor than painting a fighter, and those usually had to
go
through IRAN to get re-painted. I think the Big Belly Ds used in SEA were
the
first to get black undersides, with the SIOP dedicated a/c retaining white
undersides but acquiring camo tops. Now you've got me curious as to when
the
first camo BUFF appeared. Bob, any idea when you first saw/worked on one?

Don't know when the first ones appeared, but IIRC there were still silver
birds in service until around 1970 or thereabouts--I doubt either the C's or
E's ever got the camo treatment.

Brooks


Guy

"Buzzer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 06:17:08 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

Actually, Guy, the man said the C models also got it.

Boyne doesn't, which was the source I used. He may have missed or
forgotten
them, or FAS may be wrong.

I would think they were not moding the Cs since some were already in
the boneyard. I base that on Glasgow getting one in from the boneyard
around 64/65 for training flights only.

Baugher seems to indicate the C's continued in operational service until as
late as 1966 with the 99th BW out of Westover in MA
(http://home.att.net/~jbaugher2/b52_8.html ). IAPR (Spring 2003 issue)
indicates that "some" C models ended up receiving the TA radar, but it is
unclear as to when the last C gave up its SIOP mission. Baugher indicates
that the development and fielding of the TA radar was apparently
problematic, but goes into no detail on that subject.


FAS as a source is not
infallible, though in this case it remains unclear a sto which models
got it
and when they actually got it. If the aircraft did start getting T/A
radars
in 1961, it would have taken some time to outfit the remainder of the
fleet,
which IIRC was pretty darned big at that time.

Given SAC's priority at the time, I doubt it would take all that long, as
our
ICBM force was still mostly Atlas and Titan, and Polaris was just
entering
service.

Your list also does not
include the E models, which continued in service until the '69-70
timeframe.

And it should. Brain fart.

E came out of the factory with TA according to one source on the
internet..

Baugher indicates the E's had the improved Doppler radar for use in low
level navigation, but not the terrain avoidance radar. It appears that
different sources are (again) providing somewhat different pictures of what
was included, with IAPR, in its Summer 2003 issue, including a list of low
level nav aids that were included in the original production (and apparently
were so unreliable the system had to be completely rebuilt, a task that took
until 1964 to complete) which does not include the TA radar. But IAPR also
says the E was the first model that was intended from the start to be a low
level operator, so the TA may have been included and the sources just failed
to mention it.

Brooks


Another interesting item is the fact that throughout the sixties a
large
number of B-52's retained the silver upper/anti-flash white lower
finishes,
which was hardly a very good scheme for a low altitude penetrator. This
all
leads me to suspect that the "everything went to low level at the
beginning
of the sixties" bit may be another case similar to the old "all the
B-29's
stripped their armament per LeMay's orders" story--only partly correct,
in
other words.

The low level seems to have started even earlier, perhaps by 1959 which
is when
the first BUFF crashed due to structural failure (horizontal stab) while
in low
altitude flight. The ACR allowed them to go somewhat lower in worse
conditions
in relative safety. Boyne shows the D (presumably with ACR) capable of
going
down to 500 feet, the G/H (presumably with EVS) able to go down to 300
ft.

500 ft. was mentioned at the crash site of the B-52D in NE Montana in
1965. There was a B-52D off in the distance that was going to fly the
profile of the one that crashed (hopefully he was going to clear the
hill though!). I missed out on the thing roaring overhead because they
cancelled due to weather.

As an aside, RAF Vulcans went over to low-level from mid-63 on, according
to the
only source I have handy, Robert Jackson's "V-Bombers," but didn't get
their TA
(book says TF, but I'm sceptical) radars until a couple of years later
(trials
in 1966, so after that). There were certainly RAF a/c which received the
low-altitude camo before they got the TA radar (I'm looking at pictures
of two).

As to repainting the SAC BUFFs, I wonder how critical it was considered,
given
their (presumed) night/bad-weather mission and the availability of Hound
Dog
(which doesn't seem to have been camo'ed).

No camo Dogs or aircraft at Fairchild when we were TDY there from
Glasgow in 1964? Glasgow never carried Dogs. Just BIG bombs until Big
Belly.

I suspect repainting was done when
the next scheduled depot overhaul came around, while the radar could be
added at
the base itself or during a short depot visit. Painting a BUFF strikes
me as a
bit more of an endeavor than painting a fighter, and those usually had to
go
through IRAN to get re-painted. I think the Big Belly Ds used in SEA
were the
first to get black undersides, with the SIOP dedicated a/c retaining
white
undersides but acquiring camo tops.
Now you've got me curious as to when the
first camo BUFF appeared. Bob, any idea when you first saw/worked on
one?

Ds at Glasgow came out of Big Belly black. Probably first one around
1965. Wing deployed to SEA around Sep 1966 so they must have done the
wing by then.

I think the upper camo on the H was in place when I went back to SAC
around 1976 at K.I.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:36:48 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

Baugher seems to indicate the C's continued in operational service until as
late as 1966 with the 99th BW out of Westover in MA
(http://home.att.net/~jbaugher2/b52_8.html ). IAPR (Spring 2003 issue)
indicates that "some" C models ended up receiving the TA radar, but it is
unclear as to when the last C gave up its SIOP mission. Baugher indicates
that the development and fielding of the TA radar was apparently
problematic, but goes into no detail on that subject.

Baugher indicates the E's had the improved Doppler radar for use in low
level navigation, but not the terrain avoidance radar. It appears that
different sources are (again) providing somewhat different pictures of what
was included, with IAPR, in its Summer 2003 issue, including a list of low
level nav aids that were included in the original production (and apparently
were so unreliable the system had to be completely rebuilt, a task that took
until 1964 to complete) which does not include the TA radar. But IAPR also
says the E was the first model that was intended from the start to be a low
level operator, so the TA may have been included and the sources just failed
to mention it.

Baugher had/has some problems with dates and such on B-52D ECM so
there might be some problems with other systems. I think the page has
been changed and the material deleted, but it went along something
like a piece of ECM equipment on the D wasn't installed until 1967
when in fact I had worked on that piece of equipment in 1963 and it
had been there long before I was there. Trying to keep track of just
ECM mods on B-52s from the 60s onward would probably take a book a
foot thick.

As far as my post to Walt it is the old ECM - defence game. Something
I never figured out how an EWO could get credit for getting the plane
through the defences and the defense/interceptors could get credit for
shooting the plane down,

Walt mentioned the Forbes RB47Es. I worked on something of the
equivalent EB-57s at Forbes, previously Holloman Det 1 4677th DSES, in
the mid 70s. The main interceptor jammer was basically "dumbed down"
for training. A toggle switch on the front of the transmitter safety
wired in what you might say was the safe for training mode.

I go back to the B-52H and here comes a new, fancy interceptor jammer
called the ALQ-117. It has an EWO controlled switch for training and
war. The EWOs complain that the training mode for our interceptors is
worse than the system it replaced. Almost like it had been
deliberately "dumbed down" for training purposes.

As far as using the interceptor IR mode to track a B-52? About all I
can say about that is first you have to know what part of the sky that
big old plane is in. Might not be easy "IF" ECM gets to use everything
they have available. The ten or so years I spent in SAC everything was
never used. One time I thought it was a go, but when the planes got to
the staging base for the excercise they went out and changed one thing
back to training. Oh, well...

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:15:45 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

In 1961 there were some 571 B-52's in service (
http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab7.asp ), and by the following year
that had climbed to some 673; I doubt that any major program such as the
addition of a TA radar was completed in a period of less than three or four
years at best for a force of that size (just based upon the '61 size); doing
it in two years would have required a modification rate of nearly one
aircraft per day, sevven days a week, fifty-two weeks a year.

IF E forward came out with TA then the D is the only one that needed
the mod, and maybe the C...

There was also an airframe
modification program initiated to strengthen the structure so that it could
absorb the increasedfatigue loads of low altitude work--I have not seen any
indication of when that effort was completed, either, or whether it ever
addressed either the C or E models.

Some of our D models at Glasgow 64 or so had the stress gauges on them
for the study of the structure mod. Only reason I knew about them at
the time was they were obvious on the inside skin in the tail section
when we loaded chaff. I think the B-52 that crashed in 65 during low
level had them because the Boeing engineers were "reading the tapes"
from a recorder on the aircraft in our maintenance office. I always
figured the recorder was the one that monitored the stress gauges and
other aircraft data. Not positive but the structure mod was probably
during Big Belly. Or not done at all on the Vietnam birds since they
would only be flying high?

In a maintenance debriefing once there was a discussion about the 2000
hr design life of the B-52D and our planes were at something like
1500/1600 hrs. I'm about 19 years old and a flunky two striper
thinking what a waste of money designing an aircraft for only 2000
hrs. Click and the clock hits 2000 and off to the junkyard. And then
along comes Vietnam...

SEAD has gotten a lot better since Vietnam?


Without a doubt. Which has allowed non-stealth aircraft to hit targets covered
by surface defenses.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Low level training for SAC bomber crews began in
the late 1950's, with actual aircraft modification beginning in 1961."


Wow....learn something new everyday. I could have picked up my B-52 book, but
thought I knew the TA stuff off the top of my cranium. I sit corrected.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

I go back to the B-52H and here comes a new, fancy interceptor jammer
called the ALQ-117. It has an EWO controlled switch for training and
war. The EWOs complain that the training mode for our interceptors is
worse than the system it replaced. Almost like it had been
deliberately "dumbed down"

Current software on some BUFF ECM gear has that same "train/war" mode. When the
training software is loaded, *some* "enemy" fighters simply get a "J-Code" on
their radar telling them they're being jammed. Newer fighter radars don't even
show the "J-Code", they simply see no ECM effect. I flew a NORAD exercise where
they specified they wanted realistic ECM, we loaded the real stuff and were
never engaged BVR.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

I flew a NORAD exercise where
they specified they wanted realistic ECM, we loaded the real stuff and were
never engaged BVR.


I had a B-52G crewmember tell me the same thing, about his time in Gs in the
80s. When they played the ewo tape, I believe it was called, F-15s had a very
hard time engaging.


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)