Avgas in France has reached $7.50/gal !

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:VAT9e.5840$r53.5583@attbi_s21...
Decimated since when? Post a reference statistic and time as a starting
point.

Well, let's start with the fact that France's efforts at flight pre-date
our own. Is 1903-ish far enough back for you?

What taxes particularly are you referring to?

Avgas taxes. The price of avgas in France (as the subject of this
thread
states) has now exceeded $7.50 per gallon, solely as a result of their
very aggressive tax policies.

Where does France get its processed petroleum products and what factors
make the cost of avgas what it is?

I presume that they get their petroleum from the same worldwide supply
as
the U.S. -- yet our avgas is "only" $3.30-ish per gallon.

You just pulled thos whole argument out of your ass, dear, and while it
might make an interesting thesis for a classroom debate, you should
quit
defending it unless you have a lot of facts to back up your assertions.

As opposed to your well-thought out, carefully crafted
counter-arguments?

;-)

The facts are clear. It is your unwillingness to accept them that is
puzzling. Why -- especially in an aviation forum -- are you (and Larry,
Martin, and a couple of other folks) defending a foreign tax system that
more than DOUBLES the price of aviation? This makes no sense to me.

And why are people required to choose aviation as a pursuit based on
the
population of their country?

They're not. But based on the population of France, there should be
many
times more pilots -- ESPECIALLY given their proud heritage of flight.

I'm still waiting for an answer: If it's NOT the outrageous cost of
avgas
that has nearly killed general aviation in France, what is it? Why, in
the land of Bleriot and Saint-Exupery, are there so (relatively) few men
and women feeling the call to the skies, if NOT for price
considerations?

The French are more culturally mature and have perhaps outgrown such
childish pursuits.

You forgot the :-). It was a joke wasn't it?

"GF" == G Farris writes:

GF In article ,
GF says...
Jay Honeck wrote:
Every indicator I can find shows that the French have killed
general aviation -- or nearly so -- for everyone but the very
rich.
If I didn't know it before, I'd do so now: You've never been
in France. I have. You're just plain wrong.


GF I think Jay is neither completely right, nor completely wrong.
GF I don't know any "very rich" people flying in France, but all
GF ther people I do know are those who have managed to allocate a
GF sufficient chunk of spare cash. Many are young, with no
GF family yet, who have a small apartment (or still live with
GF their parents) and other compromises in life. When they get
GF married, and baby comes along, flying stops. Often you see
GF them coming back in their 40's, when they manage to get the
GF budget back on track.

This is a very good description of GA in the USA! It certainly
describes my flying experience: PP-ASEL at age 20, accumulated all of
80 hours, then stopped flying for 17 years to finish school, get
married, buy a house, ....

Then I joined a club and rented for 10 years, starting in my late
30s. Finally bought a 2-seat airplane for $20K and really enjoy it.

GF I think it's true, even obvious, that the cost of flying in
GF Europe is the main reason why there are relatively few who
GF take it up.

Relatively few Americans take it up, or Japanese, or [insert rich
industrial country]. Why? Because most people flat out don't like
flying, and for sure don't like flying in small planes.

"JH" == Jay Honeck writes:

You fail to take several things into account. In North America,
private planes are a viable and often necessary method of
transport because of the distances and the lack of other
transport methods in some areas.

JH This is totally and categorically false. Outside of Alaska,
JH private airplanes are not "necessary" for transportation in
JH America at all.

Uh, Jay. *North* America. That includes Canada and Mexico and, yes,
Alaska.

"JH" == Jay Honeck writes:

If aviation weren't dead in France, they should have the same
PROPORTION of pilots, aircraft and airports as the US.
If aviation were dead in France, they wouldn't build
Airbusses.

JH Airbus? Pah. That's not aviation -- that's industry.

JH I'm talking about real, grass-roots aviation, Stefan -- like
JH Bleriot and Saint-Exupery practiced.

What about all the Light Sport aircraft just starting to show up in
the USA? Most come from Europe, including France.

In my research of airport clubs to visit 5 years ago for my one and so
far only :-( trip to France, I found lots of clubs and airports. GA
is certainly not dead in France, nor did it appear to me to be
confined to the rich. Instead, just like in the USA, people make
choices on how to spend their money and a few spend it on airplanes.

Stefan wrote:

At the moment, liability insurance requirements for aircraft up to 2
tons MTOW is around 3 Million dollars (approximately).

What I meant is -- how much does one have to pay for this insurance.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote

THe two things that killed it were the cost of AVGAS and Insurance.

And the cost of even 40 year old airplanes.
--
Jim in NC

Markus Voget wrote:

The annual premium (both liability and hull coverage) for a Katana DA20
owned by a flying club in Germany used to be the equivalent of around $5500
(slightly over 4000 Euro).


Danke.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

"Chris" wrote

Just so happens that six strawberries and 1 pear also make seven fruit.

It means **** all.
????????????????????????????

"Jay Honeck" wrote

I'm still waiting for an answer: If it's NOT the outrageous cost of avgas
that has nearly killed general aviation in France, what is it? Why, in
the
land of Bleriot and Saint-Exupery, are there so (relatively) few men and
women feeling the call to the skies, if NOT for price considerations?


I am afraid you are arguing a lost cause, with people unable or unwilling to
admit a problem. Same result, either way.
--
Jim in NC

"Stefan" wrote

Third, to correct another misinformation: It's not only avgas which is
taxed, but all oil products which is used for engines. (Jet fuel is an
exeption, but this is a long story. So let's forget this for the
moment.) Yes, auto gas is also highly taxed. But, surprize surprize, car
traffic isn't dead at all throughout Europe. Which already is that proof
you asked for.

Ah, but it does make a very big difference in the mile driven per person,
per year, and the cars are generally smaller with better gas economy. The
tax in this case is driving at getting to people to use public
transportation..

So, to summarize: Yes, there is fewer GA in Europe. But even if you
would wipe all avgas taxes, there wouldn't be more.

How do you come to that conclusion?
--
Jim in NC