Should We Bomb Syria and Iran?

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:11:49 -0500, "tscottme"
wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in message
.. .

Condemning an entire race because of the misdeeds of a few is a recipe
for disaster.

Al Minyard

When they use civilians as soldiers, I consider their civilians as
soldiers. When their leaders push *all* Muslims to action, I suspect
all Muslims until proven loyal. If they think this unfair, they should
stop. When I see massive marches of "peaceful" Muslims taking back
their religion from the Wahhabis/Salafis I'll narrow my suspicions.
Many of the politically correct czars have no guilt in suspecting
Christians after a couple of anti-abortion murders strike, yet they
aren't sure that thousands dead from Islamists is reason to suspect
them.

I agree fully that theocracies and terrorists are bad, but there are
quite a few Arab-Americans who have nothing to do with either.

Al Minyard

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:20:24 -0500, "tscottme"
wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 08:16:18 -0500, "tscottme"
wrote:

There are numerous examples of Israel pulling back or helping the
"palestinians" only to have that be taken as a sign of weakness and
increased terrorism followed. For Pete's sake the Israelis equipped
the
PA police, they pulled out of Lebanon behind UN mandated lines, left
the
West Bank until attacks forced them to return.

Israel is only further along the same path the US has just started on
fighting terrorism.

There already is a palestinian state, it's called Jordan. The
Hashemites should pick up their toys and return to the Arabian
peninsula.

Israel is not a proponent of peace. They, like the Palestinians, seek
the utter destruction of their "enemies". The settlements in
Palestinian territory illustrate this. "Let he who is without sin cast
the first stone".

Al Minyard

Is that why Israel left Lebanon, behind a UN approved border, equipped
the Palestinian Authority, due to Oslo, and fenced and remained out of
Gaza because they are seeking to destroy the people that murder them?
Israel offered a very large proportion of the land the "palestinians"
demanded and the response was not a counter-offer, not an argument, but
another war. Why the "palestinians" haven't been expelled to Jordan
where they belong is funny. Jordan is 70+ percent of Palestine, it's
populated by 60+ percent "palestinians" and the Hashemites are an
occupying Arabian tribe, yet they only want the land of the Jews. Look
at the map of Palestine that Arafat's group wants, it's all of the area,
except for Jordan, since Jordan kicked their ass and doesn't wilt to
charges of "bias".

You don't know what you are talking about and assume that issuing equal
blame for both sides makes you sound fair and impartial.

I know quite well what I am talking about. Theocracies are evil,
always have been, always will be.

Al Minyard

"Emmanuel Gustin" wrote in message ...
Terrorism is very much a local phenomenon with branch offices in
nations that allow it


You are living in the past.

Terrorism is a local phenomenon only if all the funding, weapons,
training, personnel and other forms of support are "centralized
locally". A modern terrorist group cannot hope to survive if it's
structured like an octopus. That model is vulnerable and obsolete.


the credibility of the USA has now sunk so low


Compared to who...France and Germany? : )


that nobody is even going to bother to read them, so it would be
regarded almost universally as agression pure and simple


Dismantling or dispersing militant groups in the Middle East is
more important than targeting single individuals like Osama
Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. During World War II, the Germans
and the British proved that chasing one guy all over the place
was a complete waste of time, money and lives.

The Nazis expended enormous resources making futile attempts to
take out just one man. For example, the Germans committed a huge
raiding force including a mountain division and a battalion of
800 SS paratroopers in a bid to get Tito at his headquarters. The
German parachute battalion was nearly wiped out as they suffered
600 casualties in the assault. Tito escaped. The Germans came away
empty-handed...again.

The British made a similar but smaller scale attempt to kill Rommel
at a misidentified headquarters in the Middle East. Another dismal
failure with heavy losses for the British Commandos.

In other words, it's not wise to focus too much effort on one person.
Amazing how quickly the egghead critics have forgotten it, particularly
German critics who would rather not discuss their own embarrassing
adventures at that game.

I know quite well what I am talking about. Theocracies are evil,
always have been, always will be.

Al Minyard

I fully agree, and the Israeli Gov't definition of that any person of the
Jewish religion has a right of settlement in Israel, but someone of another
religion who was originally born (or whose parents were born) inside the
geographical state of Israel does not have the right of return makes Israel
a theocracy.

David Nicholls

lives.

The Nazis expended enormous resources making futile attempts to
take out just one man. For example, the Germans committed a huge
raiding force including a mountain division and a battalion of
800 SS paratroopers in a bid to get Tito at his headquarters. The
German parachute battalion was nearly wiped out as they suffered
600 casualties in the assault. Tito escaped. The Germans came away
empty-handed...again.

The British made a similar but smaller scale attempt to kill Rommel
at a misidentified headquarters in the Middle East. Another dismal
failure with heavy losses for the British Commandos.

In other words, it's not wise to focus too much effort on one person.
Amazing how quickly the egghead critics have forgotten it, particularly
German critics who would rather not discuss their own embarrassing
adventures at that game.

The German Tito raid was carried out by the SS Parachute Battalion 500
which was mostly a low morale penal unit. Yugoslavia with its rugged
mountails and poor rail & communications structure also made it an
excellent partisan stronghold. You fail to mention that a large number
of Tito's partisans were killed in the assault and that Tito himself
was almost caught- barely escaping with his life.
And BTW, the Germans DID rescue/recapture Mussolini from Gran Sasso...

Rob

"Emmanuel Gustin" wrote in message ...
"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
m...

Terrorism is a local phenomenon only if all the funding, weapons,
training, personnel and other forms of support are "centralized
locally". A modern terrorist group cannot hope to survive if it's
structured like an octopus. That model is vulnerable and obsolete.

That model has never been obsolete, precisely because it
is the least vulnerable model.


You've got it backwards. That model is not used by global terrorist
groups because it is obsolete. Al Qaeda has no centralized system
of supply and support. They rely on multiple sources.



Groups like al Quaeda are not big monolithic corporations;

Exactly. But that statement conflicts with your previous one.



the credibility of the USA has now sunk so low

Compared to who...France and Germany? : )

Yes, and Russia, the UN, and even the UK...

The UK government may have been making the same errors as
the US government, by British institutions are still widely
regarded as robust and independent, and quite capable
of making politicians who misbehave pay the price for it.


Heath and Thatcher constantly misbehaved, and got away with it too.
Blair appears to be on our payroll.


Besides, Blair has the advantage over Bush in that he
sounds like a vicar, not a snake-oil salesman...


Tony Blair is the biggest arse-kisser of America, because he knows
the USA underwrites the security of the United Kingdom. That makes
him far more intelligent than the average Brit.


Dismantling or dispersing militant groups in the Middle East is
more important than targeting single individuals like Osama
Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. During World War II, the Germans
and the British proved that chasing one guy all over the place
was a complete waste of time, money and lives.

I entirely agree with that. That is why I don't believe that the
"decapitation" strategy the US is pursuing in Iraq will have
much impact. Arresting or killing Saddam won't solve the
problems at all.


Only in your fantasies. We aren't pursuing a decapititaion strategy
because there are very many heads on the beast. It was better to start
with little fish like Iraq, before applying more pressure on Iran and
Saudi Arabia.


The American administration has the habit of selecting easy
targets, instead of real targets.


False. We need Iraq's oil to pay for the invasion and disbandment
of Hussein's government.

But I applaud the President for denying it publicly. That is the
politics we learned from the liars and has-beens of Europe and
the United Kingdom. ; )

(robert arndt) wrote in message . com...

The German Tito raid was carried out by the SS Parachute Battalion 500
which was mostly a low morale penal unit. Yugoslavia with its rugged
mountails and poor rail & communications structure also made it an
excellent partisan stronghold.

You fail to mention that a large number of Tito's partisans were
killed in the assault

That is a myth invented by the Germans. Tito's partisans suffered
light casualties. The slow-witted SS paratroops had plenty of help
from a mountain division and other Nazi units, but they were no match
for the partisans.

In general, the Germans were not very good at counterguerrilla warfare.



Tito himself was almost caught.


Almost doesn't count.

If you want to see a job done better, look at the US special forces
operation against the guerrilla chief Che Guevera. They assisted the
Bolivian patrol who killed the bugger. Intended as a slap in the face
to Castro.


the Germans DID rescue/recapture Mussolini from Gran Sasso...


Only because there was no significant opposition.

If there was, you would see a repeat of the slaughter that visited
German troops and their stooges around Tito's headquarters.

(Evan Brennan) wrote in message om...
(robert arndt) wrote in message . com...

The German Tito raid was carried out by the SS Parachute Battalion 500
which was mostly a low morale penal unit. Yugoslavia with its rugged
mountails and poor rail & communications structure also made it an
excellent partisan stronghold.

You fail to mention that a large number of Tito's partisans were
killed in the assault

That is a myth invented by the Germans. Tito's partisans suffered
light casualties. The slow-witted SS paratroops had plenty of help
from a mountain division and other Nazi units, but they were no match
for the partisans.

In general, the Germans were not very good at counterguerrilla warfare.



Tito himself was almost caught.


Almost doesn't count.

If you want to see a job done better, look at the US special forces
operation against the guerrilla chief Che Guevera. They assisted the
Bolivian patrol who killed the bugger. Intended as a slap in the face
to Castro.


the Germans DID rescue/recapture Mussolini from Gran Sasso...


Only because there was no significant opposition.

If there was, you would see a repeat of the slaughter that visited
German troops and their stooges around Tito's headquarters.

Here is a site that tells about the battle

http://www.eliteforces.freewire.co.u...es/FAL_500.htm

Most of my history books on WW2 say that Marshall Tito barely escaped
with his life, so IMO the Germans didn't do any worse than the current
US Special Forces that were searching for Osama Bin Laden or Saddam
Hussein. Same situtation in both Afghanistan and Iraq with resistance.

I would also have to agree that the terrain in Yugoslavia favored the
defenders as the Germans didn't control most of the countryside
anyway. However, the Germans did kill many partisans in constant
reprisal raids even though they were tied down in the country.

Kenneth Williams

"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
m...
"Emmanuel Gustin" wrote in message
...
"Evan Brennan" wrote in message
m...

Terrorism is a local phenomenon only if all the funding, weapons,
training, personnel and other forms of support are "centralized
locally". A modern terrorist group cannot hope to survive if it's
structured like an octopus. That model is vulnerable and obsolete.

That model has never been obsolete, precisely because it
is the least vulnerable model.


You've got it backwards. That model is not used by global terrorist
groups because it is obsolete. Al Qaeda has no centralized system
of supply and support. They rely on multiple sources.

Hence the octopus analogy.

Groups like al Quaeda are not big monolithic corporations;

Exactly. But that statement conflicts with your previous one.

Tip: always *read* the post you're replying to. I know it wastes time you
could be spending on building Airfix models, but you may avoid looking like
a t**t.


the credibility of the USA has now sunk so low

Compared to who...France and Germany? : )

Yes, and Russia, the UN, and even the UK...

The UK government may have been making the same errors as
the US government, by British institutions are still widely
regarded as robust and independent, and quite capable
of making politicians who misbehave pay the price for it.

(snip low-grade troll-fodder)

John

"tscottme" wrote in message ...
Rob van Riel wrote in message
om...
I can't recall hearing any mullah screaming for my blood recently. Or
that of Americans, for that matter.
On the other hand, I've heard plenty of Americans screaming for
theirs. I'm sure there's a conclusion in those observations, but I'll
ignore it for now.

Do you know anyone that disputes Iranian support for Hizbollah? You
remember Hizbollah, the organization that had killed more Americans than
any other terrorist group prior to Sept 11.

Simply being ignorant of the rantings of the Iranian mullahs is not
exactly the same as they not making the threats.

I never said they appreciated the existence of Israel, or that they
didn't support groups dedicated to fighting Israel by unsavoury means.
Nor am I ignorant of the fact that Hizbollah caused considerable US
casualties. What do you expect them to do? Not follow the "supporters
of my enemy are my enemies" doctrine? The US seems to have no problem
with that reasoning.

None of this has any relevance to the fact that in recent years, there
have been no calls for the destruction of the US.

Rob