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Average number of flights to solo for ab-initio students?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 22nd 12, 04:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Paynter[_2_]
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Posts: 110
Default Average number of flights to solo for ab-initio students?

My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.

Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?

TIA

Frank (TA)
  #2  
Old January 22nd 12, 07:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bill D
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Posts: 746
Default Average number of flights to solo for ab-initio students?

On Jan 22, 8:53*am, Frank Paynter wrote:
My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. *Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.

Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?

TIA

Frank (TA)


While there may be differences between commercial glider operations
and volunteer club instruction programs, it's small compared to
differences in individual students and instructors. Less confident
instructors will make more flights with students to make sure they are
really ready for solo. Less apt students obviously will take longer
to acquire the needed skills.

A big advantage to commercial training is the "student as customer"
concept. Another advantage is commercial operations fly 180 to 350
days a year while some clubs fly as few as 50 days a year. Training
is simply more accessible at commercial operations. Students just
find it easier to schedule flight training.

OTOH, clubs with a strong XC culture will give a student a broader and
deeper knowledge of soaring than any commercial operation can afford
to do - although they'll likely take longer to do it.

I'm sometimes asked for a recommendation for someone in a hurry with
no financial limitations. I tell them to take a winter vacation to a
warm climate glider school such as those in Fl, TX AZ or CA. Plan 2 -
3 weeks to get a glider rating.
  #3  
Old January 22nd 12, 07:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
T[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 187
Default Average number of flights to solo for ab-initio students?

On Jan 22, 7:53*am, Frank Paynter wrote:
My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. *Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.

Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?

TIA

Frank (TA)


A lot of data is missing from your basic determination of first flight
to solo.
Commercial operations are able to operate more days than just weekend
clubs. This allows closer repetitive flying days for the student. Are
you separating data of "add-on" and primary students? Does your club
maintaining training records and standard syllabus folders for the
volunteer instructors and students to review during the pre brief? Are
your instructors assigning reading material to prepare for the next
lesson? Or do your instructors just say "jump in let's go".

Are your students there at least one day every weekend and stay for
more than just thier lesson? A student who flies every other week or
has longer delays between fly days will need to repeat the last
lesson. Are assigned readings reviewed before the flight and the
syllabus followed? Is the student prepared? If they are instructed in
the checklist, shown the material in the handbook, and told to
memorize it for the next week. And then they show up to fly and had
not cracked the book, they are wasting the instructors free time and
their money.

A club with volunteer instructors can operate efficiently with a good
syllabus and lead instructor guidance.

I would venture that our numbers are slightly lower, but I have not
crunched or tracked the data. Everyone gets that student that just has
"the hands", and the student that does not, but thinks he already
knows everything. The second student will take more lessons to
complete.

T
  #4  
Old January 22nd 12, 07:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Paynter[_2_]
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Posts: 110
Default Average number of flights to solo for ab-initio students?

On Jan 22, 1:06*pm, T wrote:
On Jan 22, 7:53*am, Frank Paynter wrote:

My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. *Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.


Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?


TIA


Frank (TA)


A lot of data is missing from your basic determination of first flight
to solo.
Commercial operations are able to operate more days than just weekend
clubs. This allows closer repetitive flying days for the student. Are
you separating data of "add-on" and primary students? Does your club
maintaining training records and standard syllabus folders for the
volunteer instructors and students to review during the pre brief? Are
your instructors assigning reading material to prepare for the next
lesson? Or do your instructors just say "jump in let's go".

Are your students there at least one day every weekend and stay for
more than just thier lesson? A student who flies every other week or
has longer delays between fly days will need to repeat the last
lesson. Are assigned readings reviewed before the flight and the
syllabus followed? Is the student prepared? If they are instructed in
the checklist, shown the material in the handbook, and told to
memorize it for the next week. And then they show up to fly and had
not cracked the book, they are wasting the instructors free time and
their money.

A club with volunteer instructors can operate efficiently with a good
syllabus and lead instructor guidance.

I would venture that our numbers are slightly lower, but I have not
crunched or tracked the data. Everyone gets that student that just has
"the hands", and the student that does not, but thinks he already
knows everything. The second student will take more lessons to
complete.

T


Thanks for the input, but I'm not really interested in any of the
intangible aspects or 'which is better' arguments regarding commercial
operators vs club. I'm just trying to determine whether or not there
is a significant difference in the 'flights-to-solo' data, and whether
or not there is any real data on this parameter at all, commercial or
club.

Regards,

TA

  #5  
Old January 22nd 12, 07:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie Papa[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 108
Default Average number of flights to solo for ab-initio students?

On Jan 22, 1:27*pm, Frank Paynter wrote:
On Jan 22, 1:06*pm, T wrote:





On Jan 22, 7:53*am, Frank Paynter wrote:


My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. *Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.


Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?


TIA


Frank (TA)


A lot of data is missing from your basic determination of first flight
to solo.
Commercial operations are able to operate more days than just weekend
clubs. This allows closer repetitive flying days for the student. Are
you separating data of "add-on" and primary students? Does your club
maintaining training records and standard syllabus folders for the
volunteer instructors and students to review during the pre brief? Are
your instructors assigning reading material to prepare for the next
lesson? Or do your instructors just say "jump in let's go".


Are your students there at least one day every weekend and stay for
more than just thier lesson? A student who flies every other week or
has longer delays between fly days will need to repeat the last
lesson. Are assigned readings reviewed before the flight and the
syllabus followed? Is the student prepared? If they are instructed in
the checklist, shown the material in the handbook, and told to
memorize it for the next week. And then they show up to fly and had
not cracked the book, they are wasting the instructors free time and
their money.


A club with volunteer instructors can operate efficiently with a good
syllabus and lead instructor guidance.


I would venture that our numbers are slightly lower, but I have not
crunched or tracked the data. Everyone gets that student that just has
"the hands", and the student that does not, but thinks he already
knows everything. The second student will take more lessons to
complete.


T


Thanks for the input, but I'm not really interested in any of the
intangible aspects or 'which is better' arguments regarding commercial
operators vs club. *I'm just trying to determine whether or not there
is a significant difference in the 'flights-to-solo' data, and whether
or not there is any real data on this parameter at all, commercial or
club.

Regards,

TA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


At my club, York Soaring Association near Toronto
(www.yorksoaring.com), we teach ab initio students in a 2-33 (so tht
means fewer flights to solo than a Blanik L-23, which is fewer than a
Grob 103, etc) and our experience for young student pilots flying up
to four lessons a day every flyable day during the week and weekends
shows an average of fewer than 25 flights to solo. More flights are
required on average with older students, less aptitude, and less
frequent flying.

BTW, after the licence is completed, we encourage additional training
in the G 103 or ASK-21. Like with sailing, the journey itself is the
destination.
  #6  
Old January 22nd 12, 07:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony V
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 175
Default Average number of flights to solo for ab-initio students?


Thanks for the input, but I'm not really interested in any of the
intangible aspects or 'which is better'


As you know, you need to define 'better'.

http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/GB...lubvscomml.htm

Tony "6N"
  #7  
Old January 22nd 12, 09:28 PM
tomcatvf51 tomcatvf51 is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: Oct 2006
Location: SE PA
Posts: 13
Default

I am a CFIG at a small club in SE Pennsylvania using a Blanik L23. I have signed off for solo about 50 ab-initio students. Ages range from 13 years to 70. My general rule of thumb is 20 flights to solo for someone 20 years old or younger increasing one flight for every year the student is older than 20 years old. A 50 year old would take 50 flights, a 35 year old, 35 flights. Several of my teenage students could have soloed in 10 flights or less but US FAR pre-solo requirements and safety considerations usually extend it to 20 flights. I am the only instructor each of my students has except I will usually try to have the student fly one flight with the other CFIG in our club as a QA check. Our club is active from April to late November. I use Tom Knauff's syllabus for instruction.
- Barry
  #8  
Old January 22nd 12, 09:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Kemp[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default Average number of flights to solo for ab-initio students?

Speaking on behalf of a well regarded and popular instructor on the
West Coast, he once commented to me:
"I've noticed that the average number of flights to solo is about the
same as the age (years) of the student. And once you get past age 50,
some students can never be soloed."

Now I assume he meant those students who are not transition power
pilots, nor ones who had a few flights when they were much younger.
YMMV.


Kemp
  #9  
Old January 23rd 12, 12:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,124
Default Average number of flights to solo for ab-initio students?

On Jan 22, 10:53*am, Frank Paynter wrote:
My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. *Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.

Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?

TIA

Frank (TA)


Our club has a similar number for the "average" student. Some are as
few as 25 but that is unusual. We tell people to expect to do about
35 training flights before solo but we emphasize that this is general
and everybody is different.
Also worth noting is "early soloes" tend to need more follow up
because it isn't all drilled in yet.

UH
  #10  
Old January 23rd 12, 04:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jeff Casto[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Average number of flights to solo for ab-initio students?

At 18:27 22 January 2012, Frank Paynter wrote:
On Jan 22, 1:06=A0pm, T wrote:
On Jan 22, 7:53=A0am, Frank Paynter wrote:

My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. =A0Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an

average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.


Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?


TIA


Frank (TA)


A lot of data is missing from your basic determination of first flight
to solo.
Commercial operations are able to operate more days than just weekend
clubs. This allows closer repetitive flying days for the student. Are
you separating data of "add-on" and primary students? Does your club
maintaining training records and standard syllabus folders for the
volunteer instructors and students to review during the pre brief? Are
your instructors assigning reading material to prepare for the next
lesson? Or do your instructors just say "jump in let's go".

Are your students there at least one day every weekend and stay for
more than just thier lesson? A student who flies every other week or
has longer delays between fly days will need to repeat the last
lesson. Are assigned readings reviewed before the flight and the
syllabus followed? Is the student prepared? If they are instructed in
the checklist, shown the material in the handbook, and told to
memorize it for the next week. And then they show up to fly and had
not cracked the book, they are wasting the instructors free time and
their money.

A club with volunteer instructors can operate efficiently with a good
syllabus and lead instructor guidance.

I would venture that our numbers are slightly lower, but I have not
crunched or tracked the data. Everyone gets that student that just has
"the hands", and the student that does not, but thinks he already
knows everything. The second student will take more lessons to
complete.

T


Thanks for the input, but I'm not really interested in any of the
intangible aspects or 'which is better' arguments regarding commercial
operators vs club. I'm just trying to determine whether or not there
is a significant difference in the 'flights-to-solo' data, and whether
or not there is any real data on this parameter at all, commercial or
club.

Regards,

TA



Respectfully, Frank, without accounting for the confounders, the data is
relatively meaningless. Commercial operations are more likely to have older
students who can pay commercial rates, but for some reason seem to take
longer. Clubs are more likely to operate fewer days per year than
commercial operations, but have a different way of looking at students. In
addition, clubs in the south can operate more days than clubs in the north,
so a student who starts in September in Minnesota will not solo as soon as
a student who starts in September in southern California.

Young sailplane pilots seem to progress faster WRT stick and rudder skills,
but the most important skill in flying is aeronautical decision making. I'm
not sure 30 flights prepares a young person (or and old person, for that
matter) to make safe decisions in anything other than the conditions he/she
has already experienced. The danger always occurs in situations the pilot
is not experienced in. My club, the Texas Soaring Association, is very
conservative in granting solo privileges to students. I can't tell you the
average number of flights, and I'm not an instructor, but I was a student
just a couple of years ago. The instructors place a high level of
importance on being able to make good decisions in emergency situations,
while the routine MCA and unusual attitude recovery situations are just
expected normal proficiency.

At TSA, our student pilots don't solo until they've have spin training and
can demonstrate safe recovery. How many clubs have such a requirement? What
other differences in instructional philosophy exist at other sites?

So, without adjusting for the confounders, the data is not statistically
valuable. I suggest that you request data from sites that are similar to
yours in geography and daily operation, and have about the same number of
instructors available.

Best regards,

Jeff


 




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