New Class for US Nationals

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 1:51:43 AM UTC-5, gliderstud wrote:
Without looking into any facts or dates (therefor I can join in the rant) I could safely say the Ventus Ca driver in question hasn't been on the RC for at least 4 years. The Ventus Ca has been on the club class list since the list began, I think, but I am not going to look into the actual facts. The Ventus Ca driver that seemed to kick so much butt at the Parowan contest in question was taking care of the Ventus Ca for a friend in Holland (the Ventus Ca is currently in Holland). The former Nimbus 3 driver sold the Nimbus 3 (a very sad day for Nimbus 3 driver), at 750kg, crazed gelcoat, no gap seal, missing mylar, still seemed to beat the newer gliders... This should show that its about the driver not the glider....With that in mind, when said Nimbus 3 driver switched to become a Ventus Ca driver (due to the lack of owning a Nimbus 3) the odds were good that such driver was going to do well regardless of what he was driving.



Ventus Ca driver had a 3-headed monster, plus 2 kids (1 teething), so I don't know how many more distractions (was the most fun driver had had at a contest in a long time) one such driver should give other drivers to pass him on the score sheet... But if the excuse of Ventus Ca driver bringing an unfair glider to a contest helps you sleep at night...then okay by Ventus Ca driver, as Ventus Ca driver has still been to more WGC's than you.



By the way a lite Ventus Ca doesn't do any better than a heavy ASW-20...just saying...but you never heard the Ventus Ca driver complain, he just flew better to offset handicap. Ventus Ca driver doesn't think its real racing anyway...Open class is the only real sailplane racing...everything else is just fodder to pass the time



...see you all in Mifflin....driving something in club class, if all the distractions (minus 3-headed monster) can make it.

A GREAT BIG AMEN! See you there my friend.

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 9:31:03 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sunday, November 11, 2012 12:51:43 AM UTC-6, gliderstud wrote:

Without looking into any facts or dates (therefor I can join in the rant) I could safely say the Ventus Ca driver in question hasn't been on the RC for at least 4 years. The Ventus Ca has been on the club class list since the list began, I think, but I am not going to look into the actual facts. The Ventus Ca driver that seemed to kick so much butt at the Parowan contest in question was taking care of the Ventus Ca for a friend in Holland (the Ventus Ca is currently in Holland). The former Nimbus 3 driver sold the Nimbus 3 (a very sad day for Nimbus 3 driver), at 750kg, crazed gelcoat, no gap seal, missing mylar, still seemed to beat the newer gliders... This should show that its about the driver not the glider....With that in mind, when said Nimbus 3 driver switched to become a Ventus Ca driver (due to the lack of owning a Nimbus 3) the odds were good that such driver was going to do well regardless of what he was driving.







Ventus Ca driver had a 3-headed monster, plus 2 kids (1 teething), so I don't know how many more distractions (was the most fun driver had had at a contest in a long time) one such driver should give other drivers to pass him on the score sheet... But if the excuse of Ventus Ca driver bringing an unfair glider to a contest helps you sleep at night...then okay by Ventus Ca driver, as Ventus Ca driver has still been to more WGC's than you.







By the way a lite Ventus Ca doesn't do any better than a heavy ASW-20....just saying...but you never heard the Ventus Ca driver complain, he just flew better to offset handicap. Ventus Ca driver doesn't think its real racing anyway...Open class is the only real sailplane racing...everything else is just fodder to pass the time







...see you all in Mifflin....driving something in club class, if all the distractions (minus 3-headed monster) can make it.



Stud, you are so awesome! If I had a daughter, I wanted her to have your kids. I particularly like your shy modesty, never bragging about accomplishments or the superhuman difficulties you have overcome.

You must be much beloved by your peers and even your adversaries.

I like him.

Well said Sean Franke.

After thinking a bit, I see no reason Sports cant remain as is (126 to ash25) for those within the club range who are fearful of "dangerous and reckless" FAI rules. :-) And no real reason to water down this new US Club class by over expanding the class both up and down. Club class is wildly successful. Why alter it? especially as a first step? It is also a chance for the US to have a pure racing class. Would be great to see how that is received by US pilots who want pure racing.

To play devils advocate: Why are we calling this Club again if its actually NOT Club class as the rest of the world has standardized (both in range of gliders and tasking rules) and grown to wild levels of success?

Isn't this "really" just US Sports class "low performance?"

Hmmmm.

Again the rest of the World has NOT standardized their Club class definitions to IGC rules. Many have done adjustments to account for national particularities. As an example two large gliding countries below.

The UK:

The 2012 Rules for BGA Rated Competitions
....
10.2. Club Class. Water ballast must not be carried, scores are handicapped, and gliders listed in Appendix 1 with a Speed Index not exceeding 98 before additional performance enhancement handicap increments, are eligible to enter. In addition, all gliders listed on the current IGC Club Class handicap list are eligible. All gliders will fly at their allotted BGA Speed Index.
The only ballast of any sort that is permissible is that intended solely for the purpose of centre of gravity adjustment. This must be securely installed in such a way as to not invalidate the glider’s C of A.
Two seat gliders may be flown in the Club Class, provided that at registration it is declared whether the glider is flown solo or dual. The number of people on board may not be changed during the competition and in all cases the P2 must meet the requirement of 6.6.

http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/competitionrules2012.pdf - Page 30

There are many gliders on the BGA Speed Index that are not on the IGC list nor does the BGA impose a lower handicap limit. The upper limit of 98 is similar to the IGC limit.

France:

4.1. REGLEMENT DES COMPETITIONS FEDERALES DE VOL A VOILE
....
16.2. Handicaps FFVV « Classe Club »

http://ffvv.org/files/2012/05/np41-r...on2012rev2.pdf - Page 31

Translation A glider or ultralight handicap of less than 96 will be allowed to participate when adopting the lowest handicap which is: 96. The organizers may also provide a ranking of "guest competitor" (HC) and use the original glider handicap (see local procedures). End Translation

There are quite a few UL glider on the French list, they are relatively popular in France. The handicap range is the same as the IGC's.

Markus

On Nov 15, 5:43*pm, Markus Graeber wrote:
Again the rest of the World has NOT standardized their Club class definitions to IGC rules. Many have done adjustments to account for national particularities. As an example two large gliding countries below.

The UK:

The 2012 Rules for BGA Rated Competitions
...
10.2. Club Class. Water ballast must not be carried, scores are handicapped, and gliders listed in Appendix 1 with a Speed Index not exceeding 98 before additional *performance enhancement handicap increments, are eligible to enter. In addition, all gliders listed on the current IGC Club Class handicap list are eligible. All gliders will fly at their allotted BGA Speed Index.
The only ballast of any sort that is permissible is that intended solely for the purpose of centre of gravity adjustment. This must be securely installed in such a way as to not invalidate the glider’s C of A.
Two seat gliders may be flown in the Club Class, provided that at registration it is declared whether the glider is flown solo or dual. The number of people on board may not be changed during the competition and in all cases the P2 must meet the requirement of 6.6.

http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/compe...rules2012.pdf- Page 30

There are many gliders on the BGA Speed Index that are not on the IGC list nor does the BGA impose a lower handicap limit. The upper limit of 98 is similar to the IGC limit.

France:

4.1. REGLEMENT DES COMPETITIONS FEDERALES DE VOL A VOILE
...
16.2. Handicaps FFVV « Classe *Club »

http://ffvv.org/files/2012/05/np41-r...ition2012r...- Page 31

Translation A glider or ultralight handicap of less than 96 will be allowed to participate when adopting the lowest handicap which is: 96. The organizers may also provide a ranking of "guest competitor" (HC) and use the original glider handicap (see local procedures). End Translation

There are quite a few UL glider on the French list, they are relatively popular in France. The handicap range is the same as the IGC's.

Markus

Markus, none of the examples (UK, France) include Ventus or LS-6. It
is not just gliders it is also tasking. It is quite different to fly
Speed task vs Area task. The handicap range in the U.S. club class
should be have the same range as the IGC handicap range. Tasks calling
should also be more aligned with IGC tasking read more Speed tasks.

On Nov 15, 5:43*pm, Markus Graeber wrote:
Again the rest of the World has NOT standardized their Club class definitions to IGC rules. Many have done adjustments to account for national particularities. As an example two large gliding countries below.

The UK:

The 2012 Rules for BGA Rated Competitions
...
10.2. Club Class. Water ballast must not be carried, scores are handicapped, and gliders listed in Appendix 1 with a Speed Index not exceeding 98 before additional *performance enhancement handicap increments, are eligible to enter. In addition, all gliders listed on the current IGC Club Class handicap list are eligible. All gliders will fly at their allotted BGA Speed Index.
The only ballast of any sort that is permissible is that intended solely for the purpose of centre of gravity adjustment. This must be securely installed in such a way as to not invalidate the glider’s C of A.
Two seat gliders may be flown in the Club Class, provided that at registration it is declared whether the glider is flown solo or dual. The number of people on board may not be changed during the competition and in all cases the P2 must meet the requirement of 6.6.

http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/compe...rules2012.pdf- Page 30

There are many gliders on the BGA Speed Index that are not on the IGC list nor does the BGA impose a lower handicap limit. The upper limit of 98 is similar to the IGC limit.

France:

4.1. REGLEMENT DES COMPETITIONS FEDERALES DE VOL A VOILE
...
16.2. Handicaps FFVV « Classe *Club »

http://ffvv.org/files/2012/05/np41-r...ition2012r...- Page 31

Translation A glider or ultralight handicap of less than 96 will be allowed to participate when adopting the lowest handicap which is: 96. The organizers may also provide a ranking of "guest competitor" (HC) and use the original glider handicap (see local procedures). End Translation

There are quite a few UL glider on the French list, they are relatively popular in France. The handicap range is the same as the IGC's.

Markus

Markus, none of the examples (UK, France) include Ventus or LS-6 in
their list (due to handicaps being out of range). It
is not just gliders it is also tasking. It is quite different to fly
Speed task vs Area task. The handicap range in the U.S. club class
should be in the same range as the IGC handicap range. Tasks calling
should also be more aligned with IGC tasking read more Speed tasks.

Andrzej, I wasn't claiming inclusion of the Ventus/LS-6 in the previous post. The point I was trying to make is that quite a few countries adjust their national Club class to national circumstances by including additional gliders (incl. UL & two seaters), adjust the permitted range in general (no lower limit e.g. in the UK, two options for including low performance gliders in France) etc. The near universal pure implementation of the IGC Club Class on the national level around the world is a myth, sorry. As far as I know Germany and Italy do have it, UK and France do not.

What is important is the club class concept and I fully agree that you need a limited handicap range (or not have to worry about too low/high handicaps when tasking) to allow e.g. for coherent speed tasking (and with it tasking more in line with FAI Worlds/Continentals). But the purists that claim you have to do it 100% the IGC way like the rest of the world or it's not going to work are missing the point IMHO (and this is coming from an IGC delegate ;-).

How far you can deviate e.g. from the IGC handicap range without putting the Club Class concept in jeopardy is of course open for debate. I personally don't see much of an issue to slightly extend the upper range to include the Ventus/LS-6 crowd, see the statistics I posted from the last 4 World/European Club Class Championships with the World's best Club Class pilots battling it out.

IMHO if an early ASW 20 is apparently not the most competitive glider for top level Club class competitions a Ventus or LS-6 will not suddenly turn out to be a game changer that will consistently smoke the lower performance part of the field because of their assumed superior performance in extreme conditions. Tasking of course plays a role, any CD who's hell bent on sending the lower performance ships into the mud will find a way of doing it, be the top dog an early ASW 20 or a LS-6.

For lack of equipment and pilots more and more countries do purely handicapped racing with sensible ranges to allow for good tasking. Even the IGC has started doing it out of necessity for the South American Continental Championships as mentioned earlier (three handicapped classes in that case). The trick is (and with it the debate) how far you can spread the handicap range for one class without making good and challenging tasking too difficult. E.g. at what point would it be sensible to split a handicapped competiton class in two to limit the handicap range to ensure good tasking. That's the basic idea behind the Club/Sports Class approach the US RC is now trying to implement.

The equipment available is a key consideration a can vary widely between countries, hence IMHO there is no point in insisting on a one fits all approach, even the IGC doesn't do it. The other big variable are the CDs and their ability to task sensibly for what's available.

Stepping back a for a moment and moving away from the narrow focus on the current implementation of the club class, consider that the FAI Sporting Code states the following intention/purpose:

6.5.8 Club Class
The purpose of the Club Class is to preserve the value of older high
performance gliders, to provide inexpensive but high quality international
championships, and to enable pilots who do not have access to gliders of the
highest standard of performance to take part in contests at the highest
levels.

The actual implementation of this noble & worthy goal at FAI level through the current IGC Club Class definition is, IMHO, pretty far away from what is outlined in 6.5.8. A Nimbus 2 or Kestrel is inexpensive (less than e.g. an ASW 20) but they are definitely high performance and would allow for high quality international championships yet they have no place to go on the FAI Cat 1 comp level...

The UK e.g. does allow Mini Nimbuses and 17m Kestrels but the IGC implementation of the Club Class concept is in practical terms a competition class for earlier generation standard/15m class gliders that are not competitive anymore in these classes. To use a US analogy you might call it IGC affirmative action for early generation standard/15m class gliders triggered by the European glider demographics of the turn of the century, a demographic that has continued to change considerably over the last decade or so (the FAI Club Class was introduced in 2001).

I have been pushing for developing a long term vision in the IGC for where we will be heading with the design and handicapped classes since it will only get worse. The developments on the national level are already making this clear and the US situation is a prime example. No luck so far though, the IGC unfortunately often tends to move at glacial speed...

Anyway, lots of food for thought, my 2 cents worth for this very important debate.

Markus

It is the the Limited Handicap Range that makes Club Class work so well. By opening up the range you dilute the benefits you are hopefully trying to capture - good, fairer handicapped racing.

This is exactly why we split sports class, with typically 30-40
entries in two. It gives smaller handicap racing, and allows for a
better race. You're welcome.

As soon as we get 60 entries, with a viable low-performace group, we
can split it up into three.

I mean, really, why not have even purer racing with a handicap range
of 0.939-0.941? Answer, because there are not enough entries.
Handicapped racing is always about realistically carving up the
available entries into groups, large enough to make a good race, small
enough to make a fair and enjoyable race not too dependent on luck of
weather, tasking, and handicap.

You're forgetting that "good, fairer racing" also depends on numbers.
8 guys in a narrow class is not as good a race as 25 in a very
slightly broader class. One of the big lessons of our team self-
examination process is that Europeans fly contests with 50 gliders and
10 world level pilots in them. 8 with 1 is not a substitute 12 gliders
is a rock bottom. Really, a successful world-level-preparation race
needs 30 gliders to be considered successful. Yes, that makes it a lot
harder to win. That's the point.

No other class says "you may not fly your glider in this race. Go
home" You are allowed to fly a ventus1 asw20, or discus LS4, or even a
1-26 if you're so inclined in 15 meter class. That's why both halves
of sports have open bottom ends.

The currently proposed conception of Club Class has not been tailored to aim at getting these ships into the competition scene.

This is absolutely false. The RC's number one concern, and the number
one guiding principle in all our club class discussion has been how to
increase participation. You may rightly accuse us of not paying enough
attention to preparing the team for WGC, because we're too interested
in participation. But not that we're insufficiently focused on
participation!

We're talking about nationals. Next year. To go to nationals, you have
to participate in regionals and get on the ranking list. To get good
enough for nationals you have to participate in regionals. We looked
hard at the numbers. Go look at my Soaring article. The numbers are
just not there yet.

That's why we've been having club class regionals and super regionals
for several years now. And we can have as many as anyone wants to
schedule and show up for, with nothing but cheering from RC. To have a
successful class at the national level, you have to have a successful
class at the regional level. If people won't show up for any contest
that does not give US team points, frankly, they're never going to get
good enough to belong on that team.

You're making the usual "build it and they will come" argument, that
somehow declaring a much narrower nationals class will magically make
gliders appear that do not appear at super regionals, do not come to
sports nationals, and aren't even on the seeding list so they can't
appear. We're not talking about 3 or 4, to make this viable you have
to double the numbers that show up at sports nationals in "club"
gliders.

There is a bit of burned once, twice shy here. Club advocates said,
"restrict team selection to club gliders, then lots will show up, and
all the FAI guys will borrow a club glider to go to nationals." It
didn't work. Club advocates said, "restrict team selection to people
who haven't been to WGC before, so the little guy feels he has a
chance. That will double the numbers." It didn't work. Club advocates
said "tasking must ignore gliders below 1.0 handicap so we can have
real races, that will bring them all out." It didn't work. World class
advocates at IGC said "build a simple cheap one design glider so you
can have the "purest" race possible, and they'll line up for it" It
didn't work.

The path we have followed with club class is designed to build
participation without going out on a cliff that falls to pieces if the
theory is wrong again. We start with strong encouragement for
regional and super regional competitions, where you can experiment
with handicap ranges, rules tweaks, etc., find out what works in the
US, with our base of pilots and gliders. Build a base. That has been
successful, though the 10-12 gliders that show up were a good deal
below the forecasts. Anyway, kudos to those who worked hard on it. We
included lots of above sweeteners for club within sports nationals.
Now it has grown to the point that we can split sports nationals in
two, but keeping the upper limit where it was all along in the US
(V1/20ABC). You have everything you want, you just have to let a few
1-34s play along. The idea "20 gliders are waiting to come to
nationals, as soon as you write a rule that the 1-34 can't come
pollute our contest" is just silly.

This is realistic and responsible. Just pounding for "pure club class
now" -- and damn the torpedoes we all go home if not enough show up --
is not. Get 30 "club" gliders to show up at Mifflin, figure out where
the low performance gliders can go, and we can start talking about
next steps.

John Cochrane

Marcus,

I don't think it is fair to bring facts into this argument. Shame on you.

MG

On 11/14/2012 2:33 PM, Markus Graeber wrote:
Just to clear up some misconceptions with regards to the IGC Club class definition. From the current FAI sporting code (http://www.fai.org/igc-documents):

START QUOTE

FAI Sporting Code
Section 3 – Gliding
CLASS D (gliders)
including Class DM (motorgliders)
...
Chapter 6
GLIDER CLASSES and
INTERNATIONAL COMPETITIONS
...
6.2 HANDICAPPING
The purpose of handicapping shall be to equalise the performance of competing gliders as far as possible. The handicap values used shall be directly proportional to the expected cross-country speeds of gliders in typical soaring conditions for the competition concerned.

If handicapping is to be used, it shall be applied directly to the speed or distance achieved: for finishers, to the speed only, for non-finishers, to the distance only. Competitors completing the task shall not be given less than full distance points, and competitors not completing the task shall not
be given more than full distance points. Any list of handicaps proposed for a competition must be approved by the IGC.
...
6.5.8 Club Class
The purpose of the Club Class is to preserve the value of older high performance gliders, to provide inexpensive but high quality international championships, and to enable pilots who do not have access to gliders of the highest standard of performance to take part in contests at the highest levels.
a. ENTRY The only limitation on entry of a glider into a Club Class competition is that it is within the agreed range of handicap factors for the competition.
b. BALLAST Disposable ballast is not permitted.
c. SCORING Championship scoring formulas shall include handicap factors.
d. WING LOADING Wing loading shall not exceed 38 kg/m2.
...
FAI Sporting Code
Annex A to Section 3 – Gliding
RULES FOR WORLD AND CONTINENTAL
SOARING CHAMPIONSHIPS
CLASS D (gliders)
Including Class DM (motorgliders)
...
1.3 CHAMPIONSHIP CLASSES
1.3.1 The Championships shall consist of the one or more classes as described in the main body of Section 3 of the Sporting Code, Chapter 6, and as listed in the Local Procedures.
...
4.2 MAXIMUM TAKE OFF MASS
4.2.1 The following Maximum Take Off Mass (MTOM) shall be enforced:
...
d. Club Class – No ballast permitted and MTOM limited to the lowest of:
1. Maximum wing loading 38 Kg/m2
2. Maximum certified Take Off Mass without water according to Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS).
...
8.2 COMMON RULES
...
8.2.4 Handicaps
Handicapping shall be used in the Club Class and may be used in the 20 metre Multi-seat Class in Continental Championships only. Organisers shall state in the Local Procedures if Handicapping is to be used in the 20 metre Multi-seat Class.
a. Handicaps shall be taken from the valid IGC Handicap list or any other list approved by the IGC Bureau for the specific Championships.
b. The Organisers shall publish a list of all competitors with their handicaps before the beginning of the Championships.
c. Handicaps shall be applied according to 8.3.2.
...
Appendix 3
IGC Handicap Lists
The IGC Handicap Committee is responsible for the evaluation, review and publication of glider handicaps. The IGC Handicap lists consists of:

IGC Club Class Handicap List
IGC 20 metre Multi-seat Class Handicap list

The handicaps for each class are published on the FAI website.
http://www.fai.org/fai-documents

Effective date for changes to the handicap list is April 1st each year.

General rules for the IGC Club Class:
Only Single Seat Gliders with a handicap index of 1,09 or lower are eligible.
Retrofitting a glider with retractable landing gear increases the Handicap by 0.02.
Retrofitting a glider with winglets increases the Handicap by 0.01.
The pilot is responsible for providing documentation to prove that his glider will be operated within the legal weight limits.
The handicap is based on the performance at a stated glider reference weight, which is based on a typical empty weight plus 110 kg. Where a glider is flown at a higher weight by necessity, the handicap will be increased by 0.005 for each 10 kg or part thereof that the glider exceeds the base handicap weight.

General rules for the IGC 20 metre Multi-seat Class Handicap list:
To be determined.

END QUOTE

The current official handicap range used by the IGC is 0.96 to 1.09 (see http://www.fai.org/downloads/igc/IGC...bClassList_V1). The last handicap range change was in 2006/2007, when the top limit was moved up from 1,07 to 1,09. This led to the addition of ASW 20 WL (15m), Discus 1, ASW 24 WL/24B WL, DG 400 (15m), SZD 55 and ASW 20 (15m) to the official IGC Club class handicap list.

Now the not so obvious actual implementation of the Club class: Have a look at

Section 3 - 6.5.8 Club Class - a. ENTRY The only limitation on entry of a glider into a Club Class competition is that it is within the agreed range of handicap factors for the competition.

and then at

Annex A to Section 3 - 8.2.4 Handicaps
Handicapping shall be used in the Club Class ...

a. Handicaps shall be taken from the valid IGC Handicap list or any other list approved by the IGC Bureau for the specific Championships.
b. The Organisers shall publish a list of all competitors with their handicaps before the beginning of the Championships.

So yes, the official IGC Club Class handicap range is 0.96 to 1.09 but if the glider of your choice is ostensibly within that range but not on the official IGC Handicap list you are out of luck for a Category 1 event (Worlds/Continentals)... Unless the IGC has approved a different list for the particular you want to fly in...

This is the case for the 2012 Club Class WGC in Argentina this January, see http://www.fai.org/downloads/igc/IGC...ap_list_ARG_V2. They did not change the handicap range but did add the Std. Astir G102 & SZD-51 Junior to allow these gliders types to participate (even decent Club Class gliders are of limited supply in Argentina).

This illustrates the point that unless the glider of your choice is by name on an approved IGC Club Class handicap list (general or event specific) it won't matter if it falls within the predefined range, it won't be allowed to participate in an FAI/IGC Category 1 event.

The IGC maintains a very short handicap list that only includes the most common glider types in that handicap range, 51 total but in reality only some 15 or so truly different glider types. The current list is, as mentioned, Eurocentric with not a single non-European type on it.

At the 3 previous South American Continental Championships in Argentina 8.2.4 a. was used to approve the Argentine Handicap system to run 3 handicapped classes of distinct handicap ranges, have a look at the results from the last one this past January:

Standard Class - http://igcrankings.fai.org/CompPage.php?compid=1436
15m Class - http://igcrankings.fai.org/CompPage.php?compid=1437
Open Class - http://igcrankings.fai.org/CompPage.php?compid=1438

As you can see the glider list for Std/15m looked more like a Club Class list, this was a fully sanctioned FAI/IGC Continental Championship (Category 1) to which the full FAI/IGC sporting code (competition rules) applied.

Markus Graeber
IGC Delegate - Colombia



--
Mike I Green

Markus:

Thank you for injecting a tremendous amount of fact into this discussion. Without actual facts, there can be no informed decision-making. That is what I wish to promote more of here.

While I am among the more vocal pilots for a separate Club Class to be implemented here in the US, I am not against making modifications to the range of allowed handicaps for next year's trial Club Class Nationals. We did it in Moriarty in 2011 to good effect. We brought in additional glider types (V1, Ls6, ASW20) at the low end, while expanding up a bit at the high end to try and capture the many HP gliders, among others.

But, I have to disagree with the point that the V1, LS6, and now D2 type ships are not potential game changers, especially in a US Club Class. These glider are not necessarily game changers in European conditions. When I flew my Libelle, it was a terrific ship in the East - and not so much in the west. In fact when I went to make the 2006 US Team I borrowed a Hph 304cz for the effort.

When US nationals are held west of the Mississippi it is my belief that the gliders with performance better than a Discus 1 are definitely advantaged and skew the results in favor of the lower (US)/higher(overseas) handicaps. There is one prominent US Club Class pilot who has an east coast glider and a western conditions glider. One wonders why would this be?

Most of the specific comp results posted (Thank you Markus) have been for very European conditions that I equate to East of the Mississippi conditions here in the US. I would be interested to see some broken-out results from US Sports Class Nationals, and broadly subscribed Sports Class Regionals, held west of the Mississippi to see if my suspicion is confirmed???

Whatever the eventual configuration for a US Club Class in 2013, please count on me being at Mifflin, flying Club Class (hooray!!!), and being thankful for the opportunity to do so after all these years.

And again, Thank You to everyone for their well thought comments on this topic.

Sincerely,
Tim McAllister EY