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Implausible Time Records



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 7th 19, 04:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,649
Default Implausible Time Records

An interesting thought, but I see the same whether I'm using the
ClearNav or the ClearNav vario.¬* I doubt both could be experiencing the
same fault at the same time.¬* It's really odd about the apparent time
compression on the OLC display.¬* My flights score and appear just fine
on skylines.aero.

On 5/7/2019 8:21 AM, kinsell wrote:
Looking at your flight logs on OLC, you have the last two that didn't
validate, but others earlier this year that did.

However, most of the altitude graphs are plotted with many hours of
dead time, with the flight being compressed into the very right hand
part of the graph. A very bizarre presentation.

Perhaps your ClearNav has a hardware fault that is gradually getting
worse?



On 5/6/19 4:20 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
These dropouts never occur during engine run which normally only runs
10 minutes or less from engine start to shutdown after takeoff.

Heating up the dielectric is something I didn't consider.¬* Maybe I
should replace the antennae...

On 5/6/2019 11:39 AM, kinsell wrote:
On 5/6/19 10:32 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I've also had drop outs with my Trig TN-70 and its antenna, though
not as often as with my soaring GPSs.

Do they correlate with the engine running?¬* If so, might be ignition
noise.



Yes, the wires are tiny, but it was pretty simple to desolder them
from the puck, clip the cable to length, strip, tin, and solder.¬* I
did that for 3 antennae and they generally work fine, but lately
have acting up.

It's easy to overheat the dielectric in the coax, causing loss of
signal strength.



I'm looking at THESE
https://www.amazon.com/CIROCOMM-Antenna-Ceramic-25x25x2mm-Geekstory/dp/B078Y2WNY6?ref_=Oct_TopRatedC_3248676011_1&pf_rd_p =57ac2d87-b669-53fa-a2b6-2c15e8d66f28&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-6&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=3248676011&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX 0DER&pf_rd_r=GNQVSWJ3FAVNDTDDJJDS&pf_rd_r=GNQVSWJ3 FAVNDTDDJJDS&pf_rd_p=57ac2d87-b669-53fa-a2b6-2c15e8d66f28
as replacements.¬* Any comments?¬* I wonder if that IPEX connector is
a push fit on the built in SMA connectors on the devices. I'm also
considering replacing the modified antennae with factory new units
and using the longer cables to mount them on opposite canopy rails
in the Stemme.¬* Those should be about a meter apart.

On 5/6/2019 9:44 AM, kinsell wrote:
Jamming is directed skyward, they're not taking out car gps's in a
400 nm radius.¬* If you're getting bad time stamps just at liftoff,
it's not likely caused by jamming.

I'm suspicious of your cut-down gps cables, those are tiny wires
to be working on.



On 5/6/19 9:08 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Yes, the GPS jamming usually centers around Alamogordo and ranges
out to about 400 nm.¬* Moriarty is well within that area.¬* I've
asked other local pilots and they don't report so many drop outs.

Maybe there are just too many GPS antennae in my ship. I'll take
a look at a divider for everything except the ADS-B WAAS GPS.¬*
Its antenna is mounted aft of the engine in the Stemme. The rest
are on or under the glare shield.

On 5/5/2019 7:42 PM, JS wrote:
On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 3:43:24 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Thanks Tim

I'll increase my time interval to 2 seconds and see if that helps.

Strange that the igc file does not show GPS drop outs since my
ClearNav
screen went white with the caption (something like) No GPS. Zero
satellites.¬* And the ClearNav vario said, "Warning no GPS". The
PowerFlarm portable screen also went blank with a "Zero
satellites" message.

On 5/5/2019 1:05 PM, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
Dan,

Open your file with a text editor and search for "B190338"
This will put you in the right area.
In each record, after the letter B, the next six bytes are the
time.

After B190339 the time jumps back to¬* B190337, which is odd,
and leads to
there being two records with a time of 190338, and also 190339.

Odd, but I have seen this before. Maybe you can avoid it in
future by
setting a longer fix interval, even 2 seconds might help, but
no promises.

I am not seeing any GPS outage around that time. This would be
shown by the
Letter "A" in the 25th byte changing to a "V".

Although it does not help a lot, the sequence error seems to
happen as you
left the ground, so I guess you were not reversing turns?

I'm not saying this is what OLC are complaining about, just
that it is odd
and it might be.

Tim.
--
Dan, 5J
That smells of GPS jamming.
Check this page.
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/gps/...terference.pdf
I did not have a problem with the vario file today. My antenna
has a shortened cable to a MECA divider, then a short SMA-SMA
link cable.
Jim



--
Dan, 5J




--
Dan, 5J
Ads
  #22  
Old May 7th 19, 05:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,367
Default Implausible Time Records

On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 4:30:05 AM UTC-4, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
... I have seen similar time sequence errors in other recorders over the years...


IIRC I've seen this from a number of GPS engines;
certainly I've got some Garmin engine logs like this.
The problem is naive software that doesn't filter
'obviously' wrong stuff from the GPS engine, including
time going backwards and stupendous position jumps.
Some nice example traces here momentarily detour
from Montana into the North Atlantic for example...

None of my collected examples were (to my best
understanding) related to jamming.

Its important not to trust too much the inputs ;-)

See ya, Dave
  #23  
Old May 7th 19, 05:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom Kelley #711
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 294
Default Implausible Time Records

On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 9:21:33 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
An interesting thought, but I see the same whether I'm using the
ClearNav or the ClearNav vario.¬* I doubt both could be experiencing the
same fault at the same time.¬* It's really odd about the apparent time
compression on the OLC display.¬* My flights score and appear just fine
on skylines.aero.

On 5/7/2019 8:21 AM, kinsell wrote:
Looking at your flight logs on OLC, you have the last two that didn't
validate, but others earlier this year that did.

However, most of the altitude graphs are plotted with many hours of
dead time, with the flight being compressed into the very right hand
part of the graph. A very bizarre presentation.

Perhaps your ClearNav has a hardware fault that is gradually getting
worse?



On 5/6/19 4:20 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
These dropouts never occur during engine run which normally only runs
10 minutes or less from engine start to shutdown after takeoff.

Heating up the dielectric is something I didn't consider.¬* Maybe I
should replace the antennae...

On 5/6/2019 11:39 AM, kinsell wrote:
On 5/6/19 10:32 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I've also had drop outs with my Trig TN-70 and its antenna, though
not as often as with my soaring GPSs.

Do they correlate with the engine running?¬* If so, might be ignition
noise.



Yes, the wires are tiny, but it was pretty simple to desolder them
from the puck, clip the cable to length, strip, tin, and solder.¬* I
did that for 3 antennae and they generally work fine, but lately
have acting up.

It's easy to overheat the dielectric in the coax, causing loss of
signal strength.



I'm looking at THESE
https://www.amazon.com/CIROCOMM-Antenna-Ceramic-25x25x2mm-Geekstory/dp/B078Y2WNY6?ref_=Oct_TopRatedC_3248676011_1&pf_rd_p =57ac2d87-b669-53fa-a2b6-2c15e8d66f28&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-6&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=3248676011&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX 0DER&pf_rd_r=GNQVSWJ3FAVNDTDDJJDS&pf_rd_r=GNQVSWJ3 FAVNDTDDJJDS&pf_rd_p=57ac2d87-b669-53fa-a2b6-2c15e8d66f28
as replacements.¬* Any comments?¬* I wonder if that IPEX connector is
a push fit on the built in SMA connectors on the devices. I'm also
considering replacing the modified antennae with factory new units
and using the longer cables to mount them on opposite canopy rails
in the Stemme.¬* Those should be about a meter apart.

On 5/6/2019 9:44 AM, kinsell wrote:
Jamming is directed skyward, they're not taking out car gps's in a
400 nm radius.¬* If you're getting bad time stamps just at liftoff,
it's not likely caused by jamming.

I'm suspicious of your cut-down gps cables, those are tiny wires
to be working on.



On 5/6/19 9:08 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Yes, the GPS jamming usually centers around Alamogordo and ranges
out to about 400 nm.¬* Moriarty is well within that area.¬* I've
asked other local pilots and they don't report so many drop outs.

Maybe there are just too many GPS antennae in my ship. I'll take
a look at a divider for everything except the ADS-B WAAS GPS.¬*
Its antenna is mounted aft of the engine in the Stemme. The rest
are on or under the glare shield.

On 5/5/2019 7:42 PM, JS wrote:
On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 3:43:24 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Thanks Tim

I'll increase my time interval to 2 seconds and see if that helps.

Strange that the igc file does not show GPS drop outs since my
ClearNav
screen went white with the caption (something like) No GPS. Zero
satellites.¬* And the ClearNav vario said, "Warning no GPS". The
PowerFlarm portable screen also went blank with a "Zero
satellites" message.

On 5/5/2019 1:05 PM, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
Dan,

Open your file with a text editor and search for "B190338"
This will put you in the right area.
In each record, after the letter B, the next six bytes are the
time.

After B190339 the time jumps back to¬* B190337, which is odd,
and leads to
there being two records with a time of 190338, and also 190339.

Odd, but I have seen this before. Maybe you can avoid it in
future by
setting a longer fix interval, even 2 seconds might help, but
no promises.

I am not seeing any GPS outage around that time. This would be
shown by the
Letter "A" in the 25th byte changing to a "V".

Although it does not help a lot, the sequence error seems to
happen as you
left the ground, so I guess you were not reversing turns?

I'm not saying this is what OLC are complaining about, just
that it is odd
and it might be.

Tim.
--
Dan, 5J
That smells of GPS jamming.
Check this page.
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/gps/...terference.pdf
I did not have a problem with the vario file today. My antenna
has a shortened cable to a MECA divider, then a short SMA-SMA
link cable.
Jim



--
Dan, 5J




--
Dan, 5J


Dan, my ClearNav XC logger, when downloaded to the OLC, appears to display the same as yours(time compression to the right). I used my Flarm IGC logger and it appears normal for the OLC. Yet on Skyline aero, Cross-country aero and See you, the ClearNav logger displays and views as normal.

The last several flights I have had experience GPS dropouts, which on Sunday seemed odd, and lasted only several minutes at a time(I fly out of KALM and the loss of signal was in numerous areas on Sunday). All the updates have been done, now several times over, yet the ClearNav logger and OLC just don't get along, yet the flight is scored and shows valid. Don't get an OLC speed when using the ClearNav.

When you figure this out, let us know!

Best. Tom #711
  #24  
Old May 7th 19, 07:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,649
Default Implausible Time Records

Will do, Tom. Thanks.

I don't use the Flarm portable because it uses an SD card which is a
hassle and mine doesn't have an ENL license.¬* I'm not interested in
buying a license for such an old piece of equipment.¬* Besides, my
soaring income and bevy of chicks has not declined since having these
problems...

On 5/7/2019 10:23 AM, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 9:21:33 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
An interesting thought, but I see the same whether I'm using the
ClearNav or the ClearNav vario.¬* I doubt both could be experiencing the
same fault at the same time.¬* It's really odd about the apparent time
compression on the OLC display.¬* My flights score and appear just fine
on skylines.aero.

On 5/7/2019 8:21 AM, kinsell wrote:
Looking at your flight logs on OLC, you have the last two that didn't
validate, but others earlier this year that did.

However, most of the altitude graphs are plotted with many hours of
dead time, with the flight being compressed into the very right hand
part of the graph. A very bizarre presentation.

Perhaps your ClearNav has a hardware fault that is gradually getting
worse?



On 5/6/19 4:20 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
These dropouts never occur during engine run which normally only runs
10 minutes or less from engine start to shutdown after takeoff.

Heating up the dielectric is something I didn't consider.¬* Maybe I
should replace the antennae...

On 5/6/2019 11:39 AM, kinsell wrote:
On 5/6/19 10:32 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I've also had drop outs with my Trig TN-70 and its antenna, though
not as often as with my soaring GPSs.
Do they correlate with the engine running?¬* If so, might be ignition
noise.


Yes, the wires are tiny, but it was pretty simple to desolder them
from the puck, clip the cable to length, strip, tin, and solder.¬* I
did that for 3 antennae and they generally work fine, but lately
have acting up.
It's easy to overheat the dielectric in the coax, causing loss of
signal strength.


I'm looking at THESE
https://www.amazon.com/CIROCOMM-Antenna-Ceramic-25x25x2mm-Geekstory/dp/B078Y2WNY6?ref_=Oct_TopRatedC_3248676011_1&pf_rd_p =57ac2d87-b669-53fa-a2b6-2c15e8d66f28&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-6&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=3248676011&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX 0DER&pf_rd_r=GNQVSWJ3FAVNDTDDJJDS&pf_rd_r=GNQVSWJ3 FAVNDTDDJJDS&pf_rd_p=57ac2d87-b669-53fa-a2b6-2c15e8d66f28
as replacements.¬* Any comments?¬* I wonder if that IPEX connector is
a push fit on the built in SMA connectors on the devices. I'm also
considering replacing the modified antennae with factory new units
and using the longer cables to mount them on opposite canopy rails
in the Stemme.¬* Those should be about a meter apart.

On 5/6/2019 9:44 AM, kinsell wrote:
Jamming is directed skyward, they're not taking out car gps's in a
400 nm radius.¬* If you're getting bad time stamps just at liftoff,
it's not likely caused by jamming.

I'm suspicious of your cut-down gps cables, those are tiny wires
to be working on.



On 5/6/19 9:08 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Yes, the GPS jamming usually centers around Alamogordo and ranges
out to about 400 nm.¬* Moriarty is well within that area.¬* I've
asked other local pilots and they don't report so many drop outs.

Maybe there are just too many GPS antennae in my ship. I'll take
a look at a divider for everything except the ADS-B WAAS GPS.
Its antenna is mounted aft of the engine in the Stemme. The rest
are on or under the glare shield.

On 5/5/2019 7:42 PM, JS wrote:
On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 3:43:24 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Thanks Tim

I'll increase my time interval to 2 seconds and see if that helps.

Strange that the igc file does not show GPS drop outs since my
ClearNav
screen went white with the caption (something like) No GPS. Zero
satellites.¬* And the ClearNav vario said, "Warning no GPS". The
PowerFlarm portable screen also went blank with a "Zero
satellites" message.

On 5/5/2019 1:05 PM, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
Dan,

Open your file with a text editor and search for "B190338"
This will put you in the right area.
In each record, after the letter B, the next six bytes are the
time.

After B190339 the time jumps back to¬* B190337, which is odd,
and leads to
there being two records with a time of 190338, and also 190339.

Odd, but I have seen this before. Maybe you can avoid it in
future by
setting a longer fix interval, even 2 seconds might help, but
no promises.

I am not seeing any GPS outage around that time. This would be
shown by the
Letter "A" in the 25th byte changing to a "V".

Although it does not help a lot, the sequence error seems to
happen as you
left the ground, so I guess you were not reversing turns?

I'm not saying this is what OLC are complaining about, just
that it is odd
and it might be.

Tim.
--
Dan, 5J
That smells of GPS jamming.
Check this page.
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/gps/...terference.pdf
I did not have a problem with the vario file today. My antenna
has a shortened cable to a MECA divider, then a short SMA-SMA
link cable.
Jim
--
Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

Dan, my ClearNav XC logger, when downloaded to the OLC, appears to display the same as yours(time compression to the right). I used my Flarm IGC logger and it appears normal for the OLC. Yet on Skyline aero, Cross-country aero and See you, the ClearNav logger displays and views as normal.

The last several flights I have had experience GPS dropouts, which on Sunday seemed odd, and lasted only several minutes at a time(I fly out of KALM and the loss of signal was in numerous areas on Sunday). All the updates have been done, now several times over, yet the ClearNav logger and OLC just don't get along, yet the flight is scored and shows valid. Don't get an OLC speed when using the ClearNav.

When you figure this out, let us know!

Best. Tom #711


--
Dan, 5J
  #25  
Old May 8th 19, 01:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 227
Default Implausible Time Records

On 5/7/19 10:10 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 4:30:05 AM UTC-4, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:
... I have seen similar time sequence errors in other recorders over the years...


IIRC I've seen this from a number of GPS engines;
certainly I've got some Garmin engine logs like this.
The problem is naive software that doesn't filter
'obviously' wrong stuff from the GPS engine, including
time going backwards and stupendous position jumps.
Some nice example traces here momentarily detour
from Montana into the North Atlantic for example...

None of my collected examples were (to my best
understanding) related to jamming.

Its important not to trust too much the inputs ;-)

See ya, Dave


I can't fault software for failing to filter out bad data. Having
submitted a number of logs to OLC from a cell phone, I don't see the
type of errors described here. Maybe better gps engines are in order?
Seems like producing good data is better than filtering out bad data.
  #26  
Old May 8th 19, 03:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,649
Default Implausible Time Records


I can't fault software for failing to filter out bad data.¬* Having
submitted a number of logs to OLC from a cell phone, I don't see the
type of errors described here.¬* Maybe better gps engines are in order?
Seems like producing good data is better than filtering out bad data.


What you say has merit, but I can't see opening up my ClearNav computer
and vario and attempting to replace the GPS engines.

Since both and my PowerFlarm portable experience the drop outs, I've got
three new antennae on order.¬* We'll see how that works.

Funny how this just started happening in the end of April...
--
Dan, 5J
  #27  
Old May 8th 19, 07:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 253
Default Implausible Time Records

On Wed, 08 May 2019 08:58:39 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

Funny how this just started happening in the end of April...

I thought: have you got another logger you could leave running on the
field away from the runway but where it gets a decent signal?

If that also gets the time hiccup, then you'll know the problem is
outside the Stemme.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
  #28  
Old May 8th 19, 11:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,649
Default Implausible Time Records

I have a Dell Streak in the cockpit (right side) for my wife's use. It
also records an igc file which I can post on skylines.org.¬* It is not
acceptable to OLC due to no ENL recorder.¬* Maybe the XCSoar troops would
write a module to access the Streak's microphone and record engine
noise...¬* Or maybe one of the XCSoar clones already does that?

On 5/8/2019 12:16 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 08 May 2019 08:58:39 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

Funny how this just started happening in the end of April...

I thought: have you got another logger you could leave running on the
field away from the runway but where it gets a decent signal?

If that also gets the time hiccup, then you'll know the problem is
outside the Stemme.



--
Dan, 5J
  #29  
Old May 9th 19, 02:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 227
Default Implausible Time Records

I see a flight on Jan 27 this year that had the same highly compressed
altitude graph, so something wasn't right well before end of April.

Sounds like you've got problems due to jamming, in addition to at least
one other issue.

Should be plenty of other gliders flying out of Moriarty to compare logs
with. Suppose you could submit one from the Dell Streak and lie about
the glider type, then delete it after seeing how OLC likes it.

-Dave



On 5/8/19 4:28 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I have a Dell Streak in the cockpit (right side) for my wife's use. It
also records an igc file which I can post on skylines.org.¬* It is not
acceptable to OLC due to no ENL recorder.¬* Maybe the XCSoar troops would
write a module to access the Streak's microphone and record engine
noise...¬* Or maybe one of the XCSoar clones already does that?

On 5/8/2019 12:16 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 08 May 2019 08:58:39 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

Funny how this just started happening in the end of April...

I thought: have you got another logger you could leave running on the
field away from the runway but where it gets a decent signal?

If that also gets the time hiccup, then you'll know the problem is
outside the Stemme.




  #30  
Old May 9th 19, 03:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,649
Default Implausible Time Records

Good idea.¬* I noticed the time compression some time ago but chalked it
to OLC doing something new.¬* It's cloudy and rainy today but I need to
go to the airport anyway.¬* I'll get the Streak.

On 5/8/2019 7:58 PM, kinsell wrote:
I see a flight on Jan 27 this year that had the same highly compressed
altitude graph, so something wasn't right well before end of April.

Sounds like you've got problems due to jamming, in addition to at
least one other issue.

Should be plenty of other gliders flying out of Moriarty to compare
logs with.¬* Suppose you could submit one from the Dell Streak and lie
about the glider type, then delete it after seeing how OLC likes it.

-Dave



On 5/8/19 4:28 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
I have a Dell Streak in the cockpit (right side) for my wife's use.
It also records an igc file which I can post on skylines.org.¬* It is
not acceptable to OLC due to no ENL recorder.¬* Maybe the XCSoar
troops would write a module to access the Streak's microphone and
record engine noise...¬* Or maybe one of the XCSoar clones already
does that?

On 5/8/2019 12:16 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 08 May 2019 08:58:39 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

Funny how this just started happening in the end of April...

I thought: have you got another logger you could leave running on the
field away from the runway but where it gets a decent signal?

If that also gets the time hiccup, then you'll know the problem is
outside the Stemme.





--
Dan, 5J
 




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