Regs regarding "VFR flight following?" (also: "need to vent")

wrote:
If I am on flight following/ VFR advisiories, whatever you
want to call it and I am flying from JAC to SLC, I am in communication
with ATC for over an hour. As I approach Class Bravo airspace around
Salt Lake City, if I don't hear those magic words " CLEARED INTO CLASS
BRAVO AIRSPACE" and I fly into the valley I can assure you I will hear
" CALL THE TOWER" upon landing. Being in communication with enroute
does NOT clear me into Bravo airspace or "grant" me entry.


You are right, you must hear "cleared into the class Bravo". You will
almost never hear the center give that clearance. There have been a few
instances where ATC led a pilot down the path andthe pilot went into the
class B without a clearance but didn't suffer any consequences.

Yes on both. I also fly in that area (out of TTA) and my experience
mirrors yours. It seems like a rule of thumb that the farther east you
go in NC, the better the controllers are to deal with -- Seymor Johnson
is better than FAY is better than RDU is better than GSO and CLT is the
worst....

I have no idea why GSO acts so much busier than it is. Maybe they
train new controllers there.

Or maybe they are less flexible because the FSDO is on the field?

Try going further west. I was based at AVL for over a year, and found
the controllers
pretty friendly and accomodating. Be that as it may, I am well aware of
the "attitude"
that many of these facilities have (probably reflects the sort of
management that the
controllers have to live with). Bottom line is that I would rather not
talk to ATC if I have
a choice in the matter. I will route myself over, around or under their
airspace and never
say a word - and I will always choose an uncontrolled airport in
preference to one with a tower if said facilities will serve my needs.

Dave J

Newps wrote:
wrote:
If I am on flight following/ VFR advisiories, whatever you
want to call it and I am flying from JAC to SLC, I am in communication
with ATC for over an hour. As I approach Class Bravo airspace around
Salt Lake City, if I don't hear those magic words " CLEARED INTO CLASS
BRAVO AIRSPACE" and I fly into the valley I can assure you I will hear
" CALL THE TOWER" upon landing. Being in communication with enroute
does NOT clear me into Bravo airspace or "grant" me entry.


You are right, you must hear "cleared into the class Bravo". You will
almost never hear the center give that clearance. There have been a few
instances where ATC led a pilot down the path andthe pilot went into the
class B without a clearance but didn't suffer any consequences.

Yup, I've even had a controller yell at me for asking her to confirm I
was cleared into Class Bravo after she vectored me into it. She said
"you have a squawk code, you're talking to me, you don't need anything
more!" To make it more interesting, this was flying into IAD, in the DC
ADIZ, where a pilot definitely wants to confirm clearance! I figured
she deals with VFR traffic so seldom, she forgot the requirement to be
cleared into Class Bravo.

"xyzzy" wrote:
Yup, I've even had a controller yell at me for asking her to confirm I
was cleared into Class Bravo after she vectored me into it. She said
"you have a squawk code, you're talking to me, you don't need anything
more!"

She was wrong. Ask for her phone number and have a calm, rational, chat
with her (or her supervisor) on the phone after you land. ****ing contests
on the frequency never lead to anything good. Quote her the AIM, Chapter
3, section 2, paragraph 3-2-1-d, which say:

"VFR Requirements. It is the responsibility of the pilot to insure that ATC
clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior to entry into
Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace. The pilot retains this
responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories. (See 14 CFR Part 91.)"

Roy Smith wrote:
"xyzzy" wrote:
Yup, I've even had a controller yell at me for asking her to confirm I
was cleared into Class Bravo after she vectored me into it. She said
"you have a squawk code, you're talking to me, you don't need anything
more!"

She was wrong. Ask for her phone number and have a calm, rational, chat
with her (or her supervisor) on the phone after you land. ****ing contests
on the frequency never lead to anything good. Quote her the AIM, Chapter
3, section 2, paragraph 3-2-1-d, which say:

I agree she was wrong and I wasn't about to get into a ****ing match
over it. Nor did I ask for her phone number. I was busy enough as it
was, the frequency was crowded, and I took her response to be
confirmation of my clearance, which is what I needed.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

She was wrong. Ask for her phone number and have a calm, rational, chat
with her (or her supervisor) on the phone after you land. ****ing
contests
on the frequency never lead to anything good. Quote her the AIM, Chapter
3, section 2, paragraph 3-2-1-d, which say:

"VFR Requirements. It is the responsibility of the pilot to insure that
ATC clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior
to entry into Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace. The pilot retains
this responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories. (See 14 CFR
Part 91.)"


Might be better to quote FAAO 7110.65:


7-9-2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE

a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to operate in Class B airspace.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Operational Requests, Para 2-1-18.
FAAO 7110.65, Airspace Classes, Para 2-4-22.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,

and as appropriate,

VIA (route). MAINTAIN (altitude) WHILE IN BRAVO AIRSPACE.

or

CLEARED AS REQUESTED.

(Additional instructions, as necessary.)

REMAIN OUTSIDE BRAVO AIRSPACE. (When necessary, reason and/or additional
instructions.)

NOTE-
1. Assignment of radar headings, routes, or altitudes is based on the
provision that a pilot operating in accordance with VFR is expected to
advise ATC if compliance will cause violation of any part of the CFR.

2. Separation and sequencing for VFR aircraft is dependent upon radar.
Efforts should be made to segregate VFR traffic from IFR traffic flows when
a radar outage occurs.

b. Approve/deny requests from VFR aircraft to operate in Class B airspace
based on workload, operational limitations and traffic conditions.

c. Inform the pilot when to expect further clearance when VFR aircraft are
held either inside or outside Class B airspace.

d. Inform VFR aircraft when leaving Class B airspace.

PHRASEOLOGY-
LEAVING (name) BRAVO AIRSPACE,

and as appropriate,

RESUME OWN NAVIGATION, REMAIN THIS FREQUENCY FOR TRAFFIC ADVISORIES, RADAR
SERVICE TERMINATED, SQUAWK ONE TWO ZERO ZERO.

I used to find CLT difficult. Over the past 2-3 years the attitude
seems to have lifted and things are better (e.g. letting IFR/VFR
transitions thru their B).

However, I don't think CLT can be compared to Class Cs.

xyzzy wrote:
Maule Driver wrote:

My experience has been mixed. At RDU where they work a lot of traffic
(for a Class C) I've found them to be flexible, accommodating, and
realistic.

GSO where there is less traffic is a different matter. I'm almost
always sent around. Even when landing there, I've had them ignore my
radio calls until they were ready, causing more than 1 circling
maneuver to get my Class C acknowledgment. It's bull**** but that's the
way they do it. Less traffic, less experienced controllers perhaps.



Yes on both. I also fly in that area (out of TTA) and my experience
mirrors yours. It seems like a rule of thumb that the farther east you
go in NC, the better the controllers are to deal with -- Seymor Johnson
is better than FAY is better than RDU is better than GSO and CLT is the
worst....

I have no idea why GSO acts so much busier than it is. Maybe they
train new controllers there.

Or maybe they are less flexible because the FSDO is on the field?

Dave wrote:
Try going further west. I was based at AVL for over a year, and found
the controllers
pretty friendly and accomodating. Be that as it may, I am well aware of
the "attitude"
that many of these facilities have (probably reflects the sort of
management that the
controllers have to live with). Bottom line is that I would rather not
talk to ATC if I have
a choice in the matter. I will route myself over, around or under their
airspace and never
say a word - and I will always choose an uncontrolled airport in
preference to one with a tower if said facilities will serve my needs.

I agree that management must be the issue. It's not individual controllers
it's the facility.

OTOH, I prefer using the system as much as I can, especially flying IFR.
IFR for VMC cross countries is easier and arguably safer. We have a
great system and using it is a great priviledge for this pilot.

I use big airports and small and find great service at both. I like big
airport security for my tied down aircraft. The best places of all are
often big city 'relievers' like Peter O in Tampa - Nice! It's all about
the money.

Of course, places like Peach State AP have cheap gas, good food, great
people, and great aircraft. Hard to beat places like that but it's not
near anything else of interest.

xyzzy wrote:

I agree she was wrong and I wasn't about to get into a ****ing match
over it. Nor did I ask for her phone number. I was busy enough as it
was, the frequency was crowded, and I took her response to be
confirmation of my clearance, which is what I needed.

I probably would have done the same, as it's all on tape.

Maule Driver wrote:



I agree that management must be the issue. It's not individual controllers
it's the facility.

It is the facility but it's not the manager. Facilities develop a way
of doing things. A facilities manager can be changed like you change
your underwear and often are. Here at BIL I have been here nearly 14
years and we've had 8 or 9 managers. They have nearly zero affect on
how traffic is handled. In order for a facility to change the
controllers need to change at a pretty rapid clip. That just doesn't
happen.