How does one land upside down following a PT3?

On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 10:48:14 AM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Saturday, June 21, 2014 8:59:22 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:

On Friday, June 20, 2014 11:58:21 PM UTC-4, POPS wrote:







It's super simple ... you land on your roof .... geez







But how do one land inverted without breaking wings, nose, or tail AND walk away?







I'm more interested in well-dissected historical cases where this has happened, than in this particular undocumented accident.



This is a serious question then?



It's not possible to "land" (i.e. in a controlled fashion) a glider inverted. Wing incidence, camber and dihedral are all against you. If you were to try this, the glider would touch down on the tail with the nose pitched rather high and the fuselage would drop hard on the cockpit, still with significant forward speed. It's a call-911 event. And there probably won't be any need to hurry.



When someone crawls out of a wreck that stops inverted, it's because the glider flopped on its back at the end of some sort of tumble and it happened to do so in a relatively gentle fashion. It's not a high percentage play..



T8

agreed!

We had an accident at Siskiyou County a few years back that looked a lot like the posted photo. Wind was blowing a good 40 knots direct crosswind to the N-S runway, so the pilot wisely decided to land into the wind on a taxiway. GPS trace showed touched down at 40 ground speed which would have been about 80 IAS!
Probably flying something like 70 for potential wind-shear, he turned final and felt the ground wasn't going by as fast as it usually did, so he sped up! Anyway, he caught a wing tip shortly after touch down and did a full blown flying ground-loop. Boom broke during the first 90 degrees, but it wasn't over. Left wing was stopped, but the right wing was accelerating. This resulted in a rolling-turning maneuver that left the ship upside down with a relatively undamaged wing on top of the inverted fuselage. Pilot is still with us with nothing more than a broken foot!
JJ

On Wednesday, July 2, 2014 8:25:31 PM UTC-4, JJ Sinclair wrote:
he caught a wing tip shortly after touch down and did a full blown flying ground-loop. Boom broke during the first 90 degrees, but it wasn't over. Left wing was stopped, but the right wing was accelerating. This resulted in a rolling-turning maneuver that left the ship upside down with a relatively undamaged wing on top of the inverted fuselage.

Now I understand one way that a ground loop can come to rest with the fuselage inverted. The tail breaks off before the flip and maybe that explains why the tail in the photo is right side up and relatively undamaged.

Excellent point about not looking fast enough.

We always joke about "helicopter landings" in high winds, but the
subconscious mind wants to see the ground moving past at a familiar
rate. We also used to laugh at how "flatlanders" would come in too
slowly at high altitude airports and drop it in because the ground
seemed to be moving by too quickly. A few weeks ago I was landing in 32
kt winds in Salida, CO and the urge to push the nose down was very
strong due to my low ground speed. Fortunately, I got a glimpse of the
airspeed indicator...

Dan Marotta

On 7/2/2014 6:25 PM, JJ Sinclair wrote:
We had an accident at Siskiyou County a few years back that looked a lot like the posted photo. Wind was blowing a good 40 knots direct crosswind to the N-S runway, so the pilot wisely decided to land into the wind on a taxiway. GPS trace showed touched down at 40 ground speed which would have been about 80 IAS!
Probably flying something like 70 for potential wind-shear, he turned final and felt the ground wasn't going by as fast as it usually did, so he sped up! Anyway, he caught a wing tip shortly after touch down and did a full blown flying ground-loop. Boom broke during the first 90 degrees, but it wasn't over. Left wing was stopped, but the right wing was accelerating. This resulted in a rolling-turning maneuver that left the ship upside down with a relatively undamaged wing on top of the inverted fuselage. Pilot is still with us with nothing more than a broken foot!
JJ

I have spoken to a member of the club concerned.
The elevator was not correctly connected ,it was a winch launch and the
pilot
pulled the release as soon as he he realised .no confirmation on how it
ended
up inverted .
Privately owned ask19
The club have formal double control checks but the pilot some how managed
to ovoid them .
The lesson is clear
GET SOME ONE TO DO POSSITIVE CHECKS

Jon





At 14:26 03 July 2014, Dan Marotta wrote:
Excellent point about not looking fast enough.

We always joke about "helicopter landings" in high winds, but the
subconscious mind wants to see the ground moving past at a familiar
rate. We also used to laugh at how "flatlanders" would come in too
slowly at high altitude airports and drop it in because the ground
seemed to be moving by too quickly. A few weeks ago I was landing in 32
kt winds in Salida, CO and the urge to push the nose down was very
strong due to my low ground speed. Fortunately, I got a glimpse of the
airspeed indicator...

Dan Marotta

On 7/2/2014 6:25 PM, JJ Sinclair wrote:
We had an accident at Siskiyou County a few years back that looked a
lot
like the posted photo. Wind was blowing a good 40 knots direct crosswind
to
the N-S runway, so the pilot wisely decided to land into the wind on a
taxiway. GPS trace showed touched down at 40 ground speed which would
have
been about 80 IAS!
Probably flying something like 70 for potential wind-shear, he turned
final and felt the ground wasn't going by as fast as it usually did, so
he
sped up! Anyway, he caught a wing tip shortly after touch down and did a
full blown flying ground-loop. Boom broke during the first 90 degrees,
but
it wasn't over. Left wing was stopped, but the right wing was
accelerating.
This resulted in a rolling-turning maneuver that left the ship upside
down
with a relatively undamaged wing on top of the inverted fuselage. Pilot
is
still with us with nothing more than a broken foot!
JJ

On Friday, July 4, 2014 3:10:33 PM UTC-4, Jonathon May wrote:
I have spoken to a member of the club concerned.

The elevator was not correctly connected ,it was a winch launch and the

pilot

pulled the release as soon as he he realised .no confirmation on how it

ended

up inverted .

Privately owned ask19

The club have formal double control checks but the pilot some how managed

to ovoid them .

The lesson is clear

GET SOME ONE TO DO POSSITIVE CHECKS



Jon




Thanks for the update and clarification, Jon!

Uli
















At 14:26 03 July 2014, Dan Marotta wrote:

Excellent point about not looking fast enough.



We always joke about "helicopter landings" in high winds, but the

subconscious mind wants to see the ground moving past at a familiar

rate. We also used to laugh at how "flatlanders" would come in too

slowly at high altitude airports and drop it in because the ground

seemed to be moving by too quickly. A few weeks ago I was landing in 32

kt winds in Salida, CO and the urge to push the nose down was very

strong due to my low ground speed. Fortunately, I got a glimpse of the

airspeed indicator...



Dan Marotta



On 7/2/2014 6:25 PM, JJ Sinclair wrote:

We had an accident at Siskiyou County a few years back that looked a

lot

like the posted photo. Wind was blowing a good 40 knots direct crosswind

to

the N-S runway, so the pilot wisely decided to land into the wind on a

taxiway. GPS trace showed touched down at 40 ground speed which would

have

been about 80 IAS!

Probably flying something like 70 for potential wind-shear, he turned

final and felt the ground wasn't going by as fast as it usually did, so

he

sped up! Anyway, he caught a wing tip shortly after touch down and did a

full blown flying ground-loop. Boom broke during the first 90 degrees,

but

it wasn't over. Left wing was stopped, but the right wing was

accelerating.

This resulted in a rolling-turning maneuver that left the ship upside

down

with a relatively undamaged wing on top of the inverted fuselage. Pilot

is

still with us with nothing more than a broken foot!

JJ