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Super Hornets: I don't get it
"David Moss" wrote in message
.. . In article , writes... You don't send strikers in on their own. That's what EW is for. Did you know that there is a Wild Weasel version of the Super Hornet going into production. (The EA18G "Growler") that will replace the EA6 Prowler and the (now retired) EF111 Raven. Just imagine, a EW platform with 100% in common with the rest of the strike package. Electronic Warfare packs emit radio signals designed to jam or confuse enemy radar. Notice the word "emit". Anything that emits RF can be triangulated using very basic equipment. That's why you separate your Weasels from your strikers. Thats the downside of using EW: you let people know precisely where you are. Generally people leave EW packs Hmmm, yeah, on-board EW kits, yes. I was talking about dedicated EW aircraft. The ones with the really good EW voodoo. turned off unless they have an urgent and immediate need to jam or confuse. An incoming missile is about the only reason to turn it on. Yeah, that's the self-defence EW kit. I'm talking about SEAD-type EW platforms like the EA-18F Growler. That still have to find their targets to kill them. F18F's are stealthier than Su30's. But not as stealthy as 40 year old F111s. An FA18 is less observable than a barn-door RCS F111? Since when? Or the SU24 for that matter. I think you made a typo. Or did you actually mean the F111ski? The Russians plan to replace their SU24s with SU34s about the same time our F111s stop flying. They are currently in low number production. Su24? The Cold War swing-wing ground attack aircraft? The F111ski? The SU34, which is not currently an option for anyone but Russia, is a true F111 replacement. It is a long range fighter bomber that allegedly has a semi stealthy shape Doubtful. It doesn't exhibit much of the faceting you normally see on a low RCS airframe. and low level terrain following capability. You do realise that terrain following is a good ground-based radar counter measure, but not so good against a decent look-down radar on say.... Wedgetail? -- "Don't believe everything you think". |
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Super Hornets: I don't get it
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#3
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Super Hornets: I don't get it
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:11:24 GMT, "Praetorian"
wrote: "David Moss" wrote in message . .. In article , writes... You don't send strikers in on their own. That's what EW is for. Did you know that there is a Wild Weasel version of the Super Hornet going into production. (The EA18G "Growler") that will replace the EA6 Prowler and the (now retired) EF111 Raven. Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers. Just imagine, a EW platform with 100% in common with the rest of the strike package. Why? No real benefit. Different mission, different weapons, different supply chain, different training, different profile, different tactics. All you really need is airfield and tanker compatibility. Electronic Warfare packs emit radio signals designed to jam or confuse enemy radar. Notice the word "emit". Anything that emits RF can be triangulated using very basic equipment. That's why you separate your Weasels from your strikers. That's why EW aircraft aren't Weasels. Thats the downside of using EW: you let people know precisely where you are. Generally people leave EW packs Hmmm, yeah, on-board EW kits, yes. I was talking about dedicated EW aircraft. The ones with the really good EW voodoo. Why do you need high-power broadband blasting when you can be stealthy and only need to confuse the defense when it's in end-game? Big dedicated EW blasters are SOOOO yesterday. The SU34, which is not currently an option for anyone but Russia, is a true F111 replacement. It is a long range fighter bomber that allegedly has a semi stealthy shape Doubtful. It doesn't exhibit much of the faceting you normally see on a low RCS airframe. Not much faceting on B-2....or F-22. Faceting was the first solution. Compound curves were too difficult to machine consistently when the F-117 was designed. Technology evolved. and low level terrain following capability. You do realise that terrain following is a good ground-based radar counter measure, but not so good against a decent look-down radar on say.... Wedgetail? Pulse doppler radars have provided excellent look-down/shoot down since the late '70s. Ground clutter for an airborne platform simply does not exist. I learned that very impressively one day while tooling down the New Mexico desert at 75' and 500 knots with one wing-tip nestled against Mockingbird Ridge for vertical shielding enroute to a target. Got nailed by a pair of F-15s that had me locked for the last fifteen miles. Ed Rasimus Society of Wild Weasels #2488 Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com |
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Super Hornets: I don't get it
Ed,
Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers. Small point, but IIRC the current EA-6B is HARM-equipped/capable. That would make it a "weasel," n'est-ce pas? True that in its very early deployments (very end of the VN era) the EA-6B Prowler had no offensive capability. At that time, the "Weasel" role ("Iron Hand" to the VN era US Navy) was performed for carrier-based airwings by the SHRIKE and Standard ARM equipped A-6B. -- Mike Kanze "If voting could really change things, it would be illegal." - Cynical comment posted in Revolution Books, New York City "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:11:24 GMT, "Praetorian" wrote: "David Moss" wrote in message . .. In article , writes... You don't send strikers in on their own. That's what EW is for. Did you know that there is a Wild Weasel version of the Super Hornet going into production. (The EA18G "Growler") that will replace the EA6 Prowler and the (now retired) EF111 Raven. Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers. [rest snipped] |
#5
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Super Hornets: I don't get it
Growler is supposed to be HARM equipped also
"Mike Kanze" wrote in message . .. Ed, Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers. Small point, but IIRC the current EA-6B is HARM-equipped/capable. That would make it a "weasel," n'est-ce pas? True that in its very early deployments (very end of the VN era) the EA-6B Prowler had no offensive capability. At that time, the "Weasel" role ("Iron Hand" to the VN era US Navy) was performed for carrier-based airwings by the SHRIKE and Standard ARM equipped A-6B. -- Mike Kanze "If voting could really change things, it would be illegal." - Cynical comment posted in Revolution Books, New York City "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:11:24 GMT, "Praetorian" wrote: "David Moss" wrote in message . .. In article , writes... You don't send strikers in on their own. That's what EW is for. Did you know that there is a Wild Weasel version of the Super Hornet going into production. (The EA18G "Growler") that will replace the EA6 Prowler and the (now retired) EF111 Raven. Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers. [rest snipped] |
#6
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Super Hornets: I don't get it
On Nov 7, 7:27 pm, "Mike Kanze" wrote:
Ed, Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers. Small point, but IIRC the current EA-6B is HARM-equipped/capable. That would make it a "weasel," n'est-ce pas? I think it's debatable..."Wild Weasel" to me is more about tactics than what weapon is loaded. I can't imagine any Prowler pilot trying to tease a SAM site into going live and hoping he can stuff a HARM down the beam before they get a missile off. Growlers probably won't be much more daredevilly even with the improved agility. |
#7
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Super Hornets: I don't get it
Ed,
Having been out of the cockpit about three decades, I really can't say whether today's Prowler community "weasels" in the manner you describe. I can say though that trolling for SA-2s - including FAN SONG lock-on/high PRF indications and missile launch - were a part of the A-6B Intruder community's "job description" throughout the B's deployment during the VN conflict. The A-6B was strictly a SAM hunter and not used for full-system night/IMC bombing like the A-6A. Each deploying A-6 squadron carried a mixed bag of 10 - 12 A-6As, usually 3 A-6Bs, and (later in the VN war) three or four KA-6Ds. The A-6B was a stopgap measure, cheaper than the Prowler, and only carried a crew of two. The B/N was strictly a weaponeer and not any kind of ECM guru, so losing a B and/or its crew did not entail as much "intelligence loss" risk as losing a Prowler. Also, at that time (1972) the Prowler was brand new and relatively dear. Add to that the then obvious winding down of the VN war and the fear of components from a pod or the Prowler itself falling into NVN/Soviet hands - and the reluctance to send Prowlers feet dry is understandable. -- Mike Kanze "If voting could really change things, it would be illegal." - Cynical comment posted in Revolution Books, New York City "Typhoon502" wrote in message oups.com... On Nov 7, 7:27 pm, "Mike Kanze" wrote: Ed, Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers. Small point, but IIRC the current EA-6B is HARM-equipped/capable. That would make it a "weasel," n'est-ce pas? I think it's debatable..."Wild Weasel" to me is more about tactics than what weapon is loaded. I can't imagine any Prowler pilot trying to tease a SAM site into going live and hoping he can stuff a HARM down the beam before they get a missile off. Growlers probably won't be much more daredevilly even with the improved agility. |
#8
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Super Hornets: I don't get it
On Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:08:07 -0800, "Mike Kanze"
wrote: Ed, Having been out of the cockpit about three decades, I really can't say whether today's Prowler community "weasels" in the manner you describe. I can say though that trolling for SA-2s - including FAN SONG lock-on/high PRF indications and missile launch - were a part of the A-6B Intruder community's "job description" throughout the B's deployment during the VN conflict. The A-6B was strictly a SAM hunter and not used for full-system night/IMC bombing like the A-6A. Each deploying A-6 squadron carried a mixed bag of 10 - 12 A-6As, usually 3 A-6Bs, and (later in the VN war) three or four KA-6Ds. The A-6B was a stopgap measure, cheaper than the Prowler, and only carried a crew of two. The B/N was strictly a weaponeer and not any kind of ECM guru, so losing a B and/or its crew did not entail as much "intelligence loss" risk as losing a Prowler. Also, at that time (1972) the Prowler was brand new and relatively dear. Add to that the then obvious winding down of the VN war and the fear of components from a pod or the Prowler itself falling into NVN/Soviet hands - and the reluctance to send Prowlers feet dry is understandable. I had that same reluctance, but they made me go anyway! Worked over the years as a partner with F-100F Weasels and F-105F Weasels flying the F-105D model during Rolling Thunder and then during Linbebacker I/II flew the F-4E as the "killer" element with the F-105G. Got a couple of trips with an F-4C Weasel but they didn't have the first class sensors that the 105G did. Never got to fly with an F-4G, but by that time the mission had evolved to pretty much a Weasel-only tactic without the ground-pounder element to kill the detected site. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com |
#9
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Super Hornets: I don't get it
"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
... On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:11:24 GMT, "Praetorian" wrote: "David Moss" wrote in message ... In article , writes... You don't send strikers in on their own. That's what EW is for. Did you know that there is a Wild Weasel version of the Super Hornet going into production. (The EA18G "Growler") that will replace the EA6 Prowler and the (now retired) EF111 Raven. Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers. True enough. I'm being a bit loose with the terminologies for the benefit of the lowest common denominators. Just imagine, a EW platform with 100% in common with the rest of the strike package. Why? Because small Air Force's can't afford multiple airframe types. No real benefit. Different mission, different weapons, different supply chain, different training, different profile, different tactics. All you really need is airfield and tanker compatibility. Electronic Warfare packs emit radio signals designed to jam or confuse enemy radar. Notice the word "emit". Anything that emits RF can be triangulated using very basic equipment. That's why you separate your Weasels from your strikers. That's why EW aircraft aren't Weasels. Thats the downside of using EW: you let people know precisely where you are. Generally people leave EW packs Hmmm, yeah, on-board EW kits, yes. I was talking about dedicated EW aircraft. The ones with the really good EW voodoo. Why do you need high-power broadband blasting when you can be stealthy and only need to confuse the defense when it's in end-game? Big dedicated EW blasters are SOOOO yesterday. The SU34, which is not currently an option for anyone but Russia, is a true F111 replacement. It is a long range fighter bomber that allegedly has a semi stealthy shape Doubtful. It doesn't exhibit much of the faceting you normally see on a low RCS airframe. Not much faceting on B-2 Seen the intakes and bomb bay doors? ....or F-22. See above. -- "Don't believe everything you think". |
#10
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Super Hornets: I don't get it
"Praetorian" wrote in message ... "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:11:24 GMT, "Praetorian" wrote: "David Moss" wrote in message m... In article , writes... You don't send strikers in on their own. That's what EW is for. Did you know that there is a Wild Weasel version of the Super Hornet going into production. (The EA18G "Growler") that will replace the EA6 Prowler and the (now retired) EF111 Raven. Growler, Prowler and Raven are NOT Wild Weasels. Weasels are NOT jammers. Weasels are hunter/killers. True enough. I'm being a bit loose with the terminologies for the benefit of the lowest common denominators. You're dumbing things down so YOU can understand them?? Nice one Brash. -- Kwyj. |
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