Finish lines

Say, JJ, did they point you at the range and tell you,
'here's some 20mm and
some little blue bombs -- now go do what you've seen
in the films'? Or did
they give you a bunch of dual training, good briefs
and debriefs, and lots
of practice?

Minimum 'foul' altitudes were established for range
work. Before that, jocks were flying into the ground.
Under my proposal, your minimum 'foul' altitude would
be 500 feet.

Are we ignoring training while trying to legislate
safety?

Come on, we can't even get the assembly check into
the rules and you want to establish a low altitude
/ high speed training school? Charlie has a way to
make pilots do their assembly checks, he announces
the names of all those who didn't do it the day before.
Guess what, the next day everybody is in compliance.
We don't have any authority over our pilots, thats
the problem.
JJ

John Sinclair wrote:
Say, JJ, did they point you at the range and tell you,
'here's some 20mm and
some little blue bombs -- now go do what you've seen
in the films'? Or did
they give you a bunch of dual training, good briefs
and debriefs, and lots
of practice?

Minimum 'foul' altitudes were established for range
work. Before that, jocks were flying into the ground.
Under my proposal, your minimum 'foul' altitude would
be 500 feet.

Are we ignoring training while trying to legislate
safety?

Come on, we can't even get the assembly check into
the rules and you want to establish a low altitude
/ high speed training school? Charlie has a way to
make pilots do their assembly checks, he announces
the names of all those who didn't do it the day before.
Guess what, the next day everybody is in compliance.
We don't have any authority over our pilots, thats
the problem.
JJ

Assembly check has been very effectively enforced by many contest
organisers with the simple policy of "no signiture on the wing tape- no
tow".
As to proposal by another to require training in low finishes, I'll be
curious if he is willing to teach this school and sign off pilots. I,
for one will not be doing this. Imagine the potential liability.
We continuously do recurrent training at contests in the form of safety
talks.
Others of us also counsel pilots who are seen doing marginal finishes
in order to try to prevent accidents.
All that said, I love to do speed finishes, am sorry to see them on the
way out, but think their time has come and gone.
UH

wrote:
A rotating finish line would address the problem: it would be centered

Rotating finish line ??

on a point on or near the airport, and would rotate normal to the final
leg of the declared task (assumes the use of a steering TP for MATs).

At what rpm would it rotate ?

How would the finishing contestant know which way the
finish line is oriented at the exact moment he arrives ?

CV

So let me understand this: We get together at sanctionned contests, to
engage in a competitive activity that requires, shall we say,
aggressive flying, but are unwilling to provide proper supervised
training or evaluation of the skills necessary to safely engage in our
sport? Because we are scared of getting sued? YGTBSM!

So instead, why not eliminate all risk: Only one contestant can be
airborne at a time, minimum altitude 3000' AGL, automatic
disqualification if one lands out, and maximum speed on course limited
to the Va of the glider. Dry, of course. And on a flight plan.

Again, other risky sports seem to have no problem training, evaluating,
and certifying their participants. What's so different about glider
pilots?

I sure would like to know that the stranger that just joined me in the
prestart gaggle has a clue as to what he is doing - ditto with the guy
next to me at the end of out final glides.

Maybe it is time to gin up an alternative racing series. Heck, get
(shudder) Red Bull to sponsor it. Make it interesting, challenging,
and fun - not just another group XC around the local area. Seems like
they are trying that out in France....

And sure, if it would do any good, I would be more than happy to teach
someone everyting I know about safe low passes.

66

Okay, guys.
Go see my new thread for Avenal XC training.
Send your friends ( or not such good friends) for
their Spring training on finishes, or centering, or gate
directional awareness, or any other contesting topic.

I can take that heat.

Cindy B

Will try to focus on the issue through testosterone haze.
As an active racer and CFI for almost 30 years, I have taught countless
courses in racing to new and not so new pilots. Final glides and
finishes are an important part of this teaching.
That said, consider the scenario in which Joe Racer Newbie is trained
and performs satisfactorily in the training course under low stress and
out of the competition environment.
He is then signed off by someone as having been trained satisfactorily.

Now put him on his first marginal final glide where he has not yet
developed the complex energy picture and blows the finish , stalls and
spins in- fatally.
Do you not think this person who signed this pilot off as trained is
going to be at serious risk of lawsuit from wife or others?
Are you volunteering to take on this duty?
UH

Now put him on his first marginal final glide where he has not yet
developed the complex energy picture and blows the finish , stalls and
spins in- fatally.
Do you not think this person who signed this pilot off as trained is
going to be at serious risk of lawsuit from wife or others?
Are you volunteering to take on this duty?
UH


And the lawyer, looking at the $1m contest liability insurance, will
surely ask the contest organizers why they chose to require a 50 foot
finish line when a 500 foot or higher finish was an available option
in the rules. All the fun arguments we have here will evaporate in
court with one crash in front of them and a long list of similar
crashes in the NTSB database.

Let us hope it won't happen, and let us hope nobody files a suit when
it does. (Keep in mind it's not just spouses and children who might
sue. Life insurance companies can sue, and pieces of glider can do a
lot of damage to unsuspecting bystanders on the ground) But if it does
happen the contest organizers are exposed to a significant liability.

BB

At 13:00 05 May 2005, wrote:

consider the scenario in which Joe Racer Newbie is
trained
and performs satisfactorily in the training course
under low stress and
out of the competition environment.

Geeze you have just described every training environment
know to mankind! Yet you still teach? If I felt like
you, I would never tell anyone to ever do anything
ever again. There might be liability in it. How many
flights are your students averaging before they solo?
Seriously though, ALL, teachers assume some liability
but are rewarded with seeing someone else enjoying
what we love to do! Low passes and all!

"BB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Now put him on his first marginal final glide where he has not yet
developed the complex energy picture and blows the finish , stalls and
spins in- fatally.
Do you not think this person who signed this pilot off as trained is
going to be at serious risk of lawsuit from wife or others?
Are you volunteering to take on this duty?
UH


And the lawyer, looking at the $1m contest liability insurance, will
surely ask the contest organizers why they chose to require a 50 foot
finish line when a 500 foot or higher finish was an available option
in the rules. All the fun arguments we have here will evaporate in
court with one crash in front of them and a long list of similar
crashes in the NTSB database.

Let us hope it won't happen, and let us hope nobody files a suit when
it does. (Keep in mind it's not just spouses and children who might
sue. Life insurance companies can sue, and pieces of glider can do a
lot of damage to unsuspecting bystanders on the ground) But if it does
happen the contest organizers are exposed to a significant liability.

BB

What about the waivers I sign before I enter the contest?
Are you saying they have no standing.
Udo

What about the waivers I sign before I enter the contest?
Are you saying they have no standing.
Udo

In a word, no. Those waivers slow down suits by about 5 minutes,
especially if they can prove some sort of negligence. Your waiver also
says nothing about contest organizer's liability to third parties. If
you crash and do damage to someone on the ground, they can sue contest
organizers, and your waiver of liability to you has nothing to do with
it. For example, consider the glider that ran into a spectator at
tonopah at takeoff. The spectator can sue the contest organizers and
the SSA.

BB