If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
will remain small, and declining.
Saying that people are "too lazy" to soar is like me saying soaring people are too lazy to try metalworking. I just made a skid plate for a 2-33 out of 1/4 inch AR plate, 3 1/2 hours pushing it through the saw to cut to size. Call me lazy if you will, but I'd rather push the steel than pay through the nose for what soaring costs, and it's just as interesting. BUT Lennie......You went about it the wrong way! I used to take some stock with the corect width, had the guy where I picked it up, just cut it with a big shear! Usually made three of them at a time. Clamped them all together and hoped for a good drill bit in the press. Those were the times, replacing those skids, while customers were waiting to fly! I was lucky to give Lessons in the 2-33 and long intro Flights in the Janus and always had a big grin on my face jumping in the backseat of the 2-33 for another lesson in the late afternoon. The differences made it interesting! Please be nice to those good ships. I wonder where mine ended up, owned it for 25 years, sold it to the Airforce Academy and they probably gave it away to some nice Group? WHERE did it end up? N 5742S ..... Places that give Sightseeing/ Intro rides, The commercial operators, are our best bet for keeping soaring alive! Those operators need all the help they can get. Insurance is a problem, seasons, locations etc. But then, Bill, are you saying .....nothing is forever? Dieter B Gliders Of Aspen Inc surrounded by dozens of Gulfsteams and other jets! |
#32
|
|||
|
|||
Bob Greenblatt wrote in message ...
At the risk of encouraging him, Lennie's recent post to this thread is the most logical and reasoned of any of his (and most everyone else's) that I have read recently. Thanks Leninie, good points. Welcome. But I still see people blaming lack of instructors or the 2-33 as core of the problem. I don't really care, until common sense and a change in the higher mucky-mucks attitude happen, it'll continue to decline. FInancially block most of the middle class, which is also declining, and all you're going to see is called "death spiral." For those that can afford the "hi price glass", it's fine, but there's nothing for the average guy. Even if there was, it would get so much badmouth from the eggspurts that it would never sell enough to be successful. IT's what happens when the competitors take control of the entire activity. Top of the line, or nothing. Nothing is more often the better choice. Ignoring the eggspurts is always better. |
#33
|
|||
|
|||
At the risk of encouraging him, Lennie's recent post to this thread is the
most logical and reasoned of any of his (and most everyone else's) that I have read recently. Thanks Leninie, good points. I agree with you, Bob. I had almost replied in kind, but thought I might have been under the influence (I wasnt'). What many people don't get is the concept of fun in this sport. Pretty sad. But I still see people blaming lack of instructor Not in my club...the instruction committee kicks them out all the time. Jim Vincent CFIG N483SZ illspam |
#34
|
|||
|
|||
The high performance market will not make Soaring grow.
I am betting on the new generation of very light gliders, that you can stick together alone and take home and are self launchers! Those have to be improved for taxiing abillity. Then there should be very similar 2 place trainers, same make, that Operators can train in and present a package. Looks like those setups are coming. If those selflaunchers can go down to $ 30 000 I think we have something. People have to be trained to be able to fly off of most any airport, with good radio procedures and skills to fit into that traffic. This will enable folks to fly a little after work, on weekends without a crew, do flights in a hiking fashion. (Wandersegelflug) in German. Also they may have some time left over for Golf or Tennis........maybe bas fishing? Think Up Dieter B "Bill Daniels" wrote in message news:LCmfc.39108$wP1.153715@attbi_s54... Eric presents a reasonable picture of the glider market. In fact, I think the present glider market is about right. There is a market for state-of-the-art gliders for competition and a flourishing market in used gliders. A person of modest means can buy a 20 year old glass glider with spectacular performance. That 20 year old glider wouldn't be such a bargain on the used market if some competition pilot hadn't bought it for an astronomical sum when it was new. We need to stop knocking competition, it creates a market of really neat used gliders. When I started, if you wanted a high performance glider, you had to build it. By comparison, this market is nirvana. The availability and cost of gliders isn't the real problem. One of the many problems that does need attention is training costs. Rental and airtow make getting a glider rating cost more than a private power certificate in many locations. It's also a LOT more hassle to get glider training because of the short flights and long waits. For anyone interested in aviation but who hasn't chosen whether to go for soaring or another aviation related activity, this is a problem. Glider training costs, particularly the overall hourly rates, just don't look reasonable by comparison. Now, I'm NOT suggesting that anyone is overcharging for rentals or air tows. It costs what is does for very good reasons. It's just that those reasons are not apparent to the newcomer. I think it might be a good idea to take a long hard look at the training "experience" from the students point of view to see if there isn't something that could be done to make it more attractive. The first thing I would suggest is to look at winch launch for training. Bill Daniels "Eric Greenwell" wrote in message ... Lennie the Lurker wrote: Almost every sailplane made today is made with the competitor in mind, and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell. There is some truth to this claim, but it's more complicated than the manufacturers "not listening". They know their gliders must do well in competition (at least the major factories), because potential buyers think this is important, even though the majority of buyers aren't serious competitors (note that the majority of the German sailplane production is now motorized). There are some "second-tier" gliders, like the reintroduction of the Glasflugel 304, the Russia AC-4, Apis, and Silent; however, any new glider that isn't a top-of-the-line glider has some serious competition in the market: used gliders. Glider last a long time, and the performance improvements have been slow, so a new glider that isn't better, just cheaper, has to compete with equal performance, even cheaper used gliders. This situation is quite different from the hang glider market, where the gliders wear out much sooner, and the improvements from year to year are much greater than they are for sailplanes. and the manufacturers aren't going to listen to any suggestion that maybe something more pedestrian might sell. Just join a thread ripping apart the PW5 to see how something "more pedestrian" might sell. The PW5 actually has sold OK, as did the Russia, and so that may be why we now have the Apis and Silent (at least in part). Attitudes are slowly changing, and "moderate" performance is becoming more acceptable. The manufacturers would probably build more intermediate gliders if the sport was growing fast enough to drive up the price of the used gliders, thus making a new glider of similar performance profitable enough to be worthwhile. -- ----- change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#35
|
|||
|
|||
Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
There is some truth to this claim, but it's more complicated than the manufacturers "not listening". Yes. Just as J.I.Case decided to abandon their smaller tractors for more "profitable" higher buck tractors some twenty years ago. From 96 tractors per day, down to 21 now, and the tractors say "New Holland" on them. Ten years ago it was already too late for them to try to reclaim their major market, those farmers that didn't have $100K for a shiny new humongous machine that they didn't really need. Just join a thread ripping apart the PW5 to see how something "more pedestrian" might sell. Then look at how many of the voices ripping the pw actually have flown or own one. Not a very good ratio of first hand knowledge to personal opinion. Probably closer to 5% first hand and 95% ignorant badmouth. 2-33, 1-26, PW-5, Russia, makes no difference, it's below 40:1 and anything that can be said negatively will be. Nobody asks if it's serving the purpose for which it was designed. Threads on a newsgroup are about as effective as dragging a foot to stop a semi headed for a cliff on a 10% grade. |
#36
|
|||
|
|||
|
#37
|
|||
|
|||
Well, I think also thermal soaring is not for everyone.
Flying in a tight circle for a while is "interesting" even on my tummy, and I've been doing it a while. I fly the sightseeing flights at sunset with a high tow for newbies, lest they get sick. A great thermal day doesn't seem like the best "first ride" day. If my wife came with me on a typical "good soaring day" for me, she'd blow guts, especially with my waggly rusty rudder skills ;( The hang glider and parachute and experienced pilot guys, on the other hand, get right into it with nary a whimper. The younguns also seem to do better than the 40+ crowd on the first flight. I keep the "Qyat Earp" bags handy... We had a guy getting a power license who'd toss cookies after every one of his first dozen flights, and that was a Cezzna 152. About 100 circles in a sailplane woulda been interesting :PPPP.... Gliding is easy to teach, easy to solo, mildly interesting (mostly the tow) and not too expensive to get to license. Soaring is quite different: nuances of weather, a lot of technique to get it right, lots of decisions in flight, and L/D does make a difference. And thermal soaring can have a pretty bumpy tow and tight circles after release. I dunno if I'd have gotten into the sport if the Hawaii shoreline wasn't so pretty and if it wasn't for the smooth ridge soaring...I still envy you guys with nice long consistent ridgelines...personally I hate circling and having to work for lift...I'd rather just float around all day in peace at less than 15 degrees of bank... Yep, it is a sport and a hobby. And just like freezing my butt off in a catamaran vs. champagne and strawberries on a 70 foot "sailboat", soaring vs. gliding/power has some challenges that can involve a tad bit of suffering... -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#38
|
|||
|
|||
Lennie the Lurker wrote:
At the risk of encouraging him, Lennie's recent post to this thread is the most logical and reasoned of any of his (and most everyone else's) that I have read recently. Thanks Leninie, good points. Welcome. But I still see people blaming lack of instructors or the 2-33 as core of the problem. I don't really care, until common sense and a change in the higher mucky-mucks attitude happen, it'll continue to decline. FInancially block most of the middle class, which is also declining, and all you're going to see is called "death spiral." For those that can afford the "hi price glass", it's fine, but there's nothing for the average guy. Even if there was, it would get so much badmouth from the eggspurts that it would never sell enough to be successful. IT's what happens when the competitors take control of the entire activity. Top of the line, or nothing. Nothing is more often the better choice. Ignoring the eggspurts is always better. Man, I had a helluva great flight in that $10,000 Blanik L-13 two seater recently. And personally I prefer flying with two instead of one anyway. The L-13 seems like the closest thing the sport has to a glider for the "average guy." I taped the things tail up lovingly, and gave it an average wash, and had a blast with a fellow licensed glider pilot. We flew slow, we flew fast, we practiced retracting gear, we went to 9000 ft, we had a great view, the cockpit was big, and it was $37 for the two of us. I thought "why don't I get other people to come with me?" and then the reality set in. It really would have been too much for their tummies. I mean it. Really that was it. I've taken maybe 100 people on first flights, probably half are close friends and relatives, and none of them would have enjoyed the 3 hour flight, because of nothing other than the bumps and circling. Does this explain declining numbers? No. But I'd like to point out that getting folks into soaring is more than just getting them a ride in a glider... -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#39
|
|||
|
|||
OK, so I was flying hang gliders at the time and sometimes bought Soaring
at the newsstand. (You can't do that anymore.) Just like I used to buy Hang Gliding at newstands. We were told by the SSA executive 10 years ago that newstand placement of Soaring was no longer cost-effective for magazine supplier businesses (for such a small press run and niche market). Is this still the case? Have the new SSA Directors, PR Committees, and Staff looked into that? |
#40
|
|||
|
|||
All it takes to get a Soaring Mag in the barbers chair
is to take one you are finished with and drop it in there. I drop them at the doctors office and in the university library. Yes, and many libraries will add subscriptions on request. SSA even has a special subscriber only price for this. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Advanced Soaring Seminar - Eastern PA | B Lacovara | Home Built | 0 | February 9th 04 01:55 AM |
Advanced Soaring Seminar - Eastern PA | B Lacovara | Soaring | 0 | January 26th 04 07:55 PM |
Soaring Safety Seminar - SSA Convention | Burt Compton | Soaring | 0 | January 26th 04 03:57 PM |
Soaring Safety Seminar Wednesday - Atlanta | Burt Compton | Soaring | 0 | January 19th 04 02:51 AM |
January/February 2004 issue of Southern California Soaring is on-line | [email protected] | Soaring | 8 | January 4th 04 09:37 PM |