Did the Germans have the Norden bombsight?

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Reading what appears to be a solid history of FDR and espionage.
Author makes the flat statement that in 1940 someone in the Norden
plant smuggled out the plans, which went to Germany. From these, the
Germans "developed their own bombsight," presumably based on the
Norden. The author points out the irony that at this point we still
wouldn't give Britain the bombsight (we did later).


The Germans did indeed have a complete set of plans
for the Norden bombsight courtesy of the efforts
of an employee named Hermann Lang, a naturalised
German immigrant who worked for Norden in Manhattan

Any truth to this? What part if any of the Norden sight did the
Germans utilize?


The German Lofte 7 bombsight was developed by people
who had access to the data from Norden and while
not a copy of the Norden design its likely they
learned a lot from it.

As to the US not offering the Nordern to the RAF it was
just as much a factor that the RAF did not consider that
tachometric bombsights such as the Norden, and British
ABS Mk 2 were suitable for night bombing from medium
altitudes. As a result the main BS used bu bomber command
would be the Blackett (MK XIV) which was simpler
and did not require as long a run up as the Norden

Keith

The German Lofte 7 bombsight was developed by people
who had access to the data from Norden and while
not a copy of the Norden design its likely they
learned a lot from it.

http://www.luftarchiv.info/bordgerate/optisch.htm

Lofte 7B-D further down the page.

Rob

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
The German Lofte 7 bombsight was developed by people
who had access to the data from Norden and while
not a copy of the Norden design its likely they
learned a lot from it.

http://www.luftarchiv.info/bordgerate/optisch.htm

Lofte 7B-D further down the page.

Rob

Thanks , nice pictures.

Keith

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
The German Lofte 7 bombsight was developed by people
who had access to the data from Norden and while
not a copy of the Norden design its likely they
learned a lot from it.

http://www.luftarchiv.info/bordgerate/optisch.htm

Lofte 7B-D further down the page.

Rob

Not being able to read German - could someone please explain the principal
workings of the gunsight in the first diagram? (The two concentric circles
and cross as rear sight, with vane-looking gizmo as foresight - attached to
the MG15).

I'd always wondered about them but never really bothered to find out.

Jim Doyle

I'd always wondered about them but never really bothered to find out.

I think it's like the cost of owning a yacht--if you have to ask, you
can't afford one. (Vincent Astor? Whoever.)

Many things having to do with aviation are so complex, or perhaps are
explained so badly, that my mind goes blank in protest. Bombsights are
one of these. I read a book on the Norden and came away no wiser,
except to marvel: Gosh, how did anyone ever work that out?


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
news

I'd always wondered about them but never really bothered to find out.

I think it's like the cost of owning a yacht--if you have to ask, you
can't afford one. (Vincent Astor? Whoever.)

Many things having to do with aviation are so complex, or perhaps are
explained so badly, that my mind goes blank in protest. Bombsights are
one of these. I read a book on the Norden and came away no wiser,
except to marvel: Gosh, how did anyone ever work that out?


Oh yes, I'm with you on that. Sadly I know that - 'Er... what the
hell...?!' - feeling all too well.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:52:59 +0100, Jim Doyle wrote:

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
The German Lofte 7 bombsight was developed by people
who had access to the data from Norden and while
not a copy of the Norden design its likely they
learned a lot from it.

http://www.luftarchiv.info/bordgerate/optisch.htm

Not being able to read German - could someone please explain the principal
workings of the gunsight in the first diagram? (The two concentric circles
and cross as rear sight, with vane-looking gizmo as foresight - attached to
the MG15).

The caption for the illustrations doesn't say anything about how the sight
is supposed to work. My translation of the caption is:

Left: Example sight picture for the flexible-mount aircraft machine
gun with wind vane bead and ring sight. Right: Flexible-mount MG15
with wind vane bead and ring sight.

The caption above the illustrations just says "Sighting devices for
on-board weapons."

I dunno -- I guess the front bead is supposed to move around the
pivot attached to the gun barrel according to the relative wind.
Maybe it's supposed to help the gunner compensate for windage when
shooting to either side? I assume the whole assembly would be aligned
with the gun barrel when aiming directly forward or aft.


ljd

As to the US not offering the Nordern to the RAF it was
just as much a factor that the RAF did not consider that
tachometric bombsights such as the Norden, and British
ABS Mk 2 were suitable for night bombing from medium
altitudes. As a result the main BS used bu bomber command
would be the Blackett (MK XIV) which was simpler
and did not require as long a run up as the Norden

Keith

Uh, the Brits DID use the SABS Mk.IIA from 1943 for precision bombing
(in clear weather, of course)!

Rob

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
As to the US not offering the Nordern to the RAF it was
just as much a factor that the RAF did not consider that
tachometric bombsights such as the Norden, and British
ABS Mk 2 were suitable for night bombing from medium
altitudes. As a result the main BS used bu bomber command
would be the Blackett (MK XIV) which was simpler
and did not require as long a run up as the Norden

Keith

Uh, the Brits DID use the SABS Mk.IIA from 1943 for precision bombing
(in clear weather, of course)!

Rob

The SABS MkII was used in relatively small numbers. At the peak
of its use it was used by only 5 squadrons and in those only 3
aircraft in each were fitted with the SABS. Most were withdrawn
at the end of 1943 and only 617 Squadron was equipped
with the SABS MkIIA IRC

The problem with the SABS was each one was effectively hand made
and the training required to use it effectively was much more intense
than for the MkXIV . ISTR that even the bombardiers of 617 squadron
who were selected from the best available had to have special
coaching to use it effectively. Given the emphasis on area bombing
this was not regarded as justifiable for most units.

Keith

Cub Driver wrote:

Reading what appears to be a solid history of FDR and espionage.
Author makes the flat statement that in 1940 someone in the Norden
plant smuggled out the plans, which went to Germany. From these, the
Germans "developed their own bombsight," presumably based on the
Norden. The author points out the irony that at this point we still
wouldn't give Britain the bombsight (we did later).

Any truth to this? What part if any of the Norden sight did the
Germans utilize?

The story has been on the history channel. A worker at the Norden plant
stole blueprints and gave them to the Germans. As I recall from the
program, the Germans were able to reproduce the bombsight, but didn't
use it in combat.

--
Jim

carry on