Married Couples and CRM (followon to Courious Crash)

Dudley Henriques wrote:
"Paul Riley" wrote in message

Paul (who just celebrated his 50th anniversary with his bride in
September) --It took me about 30 seconds after I said "I do" to learn to
say "Yes Dear"!! Some lessons you never forget--thankfully!!! ))))

40 years actually :-))

You are absolutely right. I learned early on that the best way to get in the
last two words with my wife was to say "yes dear"
:-)
DH

Okay, just 35 years for me. I'm a young'un.

One advantage of living in Montana: yard work only lasts for about two
weeks every year.

I won't talk about the snow shoveling, though. :)

After years of flying with me, my wife has become a master of subtlety.
On short final: "Hon, why are those lights on the side of the runway
all red? OH, I see, you're trying to avoid that hawk that's soaring two
thousand feet above us. You are SO clever!".

It's similar to, "Hon, I let the cat out and I watched her disappear in
the snow somewhere on the driveway. Will you go dig her out? Please?"

I hate it when she does that. :)

--Walt

"Walt" wrote in message
ups.com...

Dudley Henriques wrote:
"Paul Riley" wrote in message

Paul (who just celebrated his 50th anniversary with his bride in
September) --It took me about 30 seconds after I said "I do" to learn
to
say "Yes Dear"!! Some lessons you never forget--thankfully!!! ))))

40 years actually :-))

You are absolutely right. I learned early on that the best way to get in
the
last two words with my wife was to say "yes dear"
:-)
DH

Okay, just 35 years for me. I'm a young'un.

One advantage of living in Montana: yard work only lasts for about two
weeks every year.

I won't talk about the snow shoveling, though. :)

After years of flying with me, my wife has become a master of subtlety.
On short final: "Hon, why are those lights on the side of the runway
all red? OH, I see, you're trying to avoid that hawk that's soaring two
thousand feet above us. You are SO clever!".

It's similar to, "Hon, I let the cat out and I watched her disappear in
the snow somewhere on the driveway. Will you go dig her out? Please?"

I hate it when she does that. :)

--Walt

I think the girls must attend some kind of educational course somewhere
along the way that prepares them for married life .
Mine seems to have graduated from the "ambiguity school". She'll be giving
me directions helping me find someplace we are going then suddenly get
silent as I start into an intersection at cruise speed. She'll suddenly
scream, "Turn left, right here!!!"
I'm on to this however after 40 odd years and now anticipate this brain
twister by mentally reversing as she screams at me and this ultimately
causes me to make the right decision.
I'm not absolutely certain mind you, but I'm fairly sure that men married
for years who have developed this ability qualify at least past the first
interview for Astronaut training at NASA!! :-)))
Dudley Henriques

("john smith" wrote)
(Taking this thread into a new direction)
Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
couples who use this forum that I am aware of.


J.O. and Stella Star


Montblack

On 19 Dec 2006 15:22:33 -0800, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
might lead to an uncertain outcome?

I have no idea. Mary and I operate like yin and yang, left brain/right
brain, leaving little room (we hope) for error. How two pilots,
spouses, no less, could press a bad situation is beyond me.

(Of course, has anyone determined for sure that there was a situation
badly pressed in this recent accident?)

Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
challenge and response type of CRM when they fly together?

Not exactly. We each have our own methods of pre-flight and
pre-landing check-lists, and we both keep a watchful eye on the other,
making sure that no items are overlooked. I don't speak up unless
something is obviously out of place, however.

The only time we use a call-out system is on the takeoff roll, when the
stakes are highest. The copilot's call-outs a

My wife doesn't pilot and our's is rather simple inside.
However I'd think the husband and wife pilots would operate, or should
operate like any two rate pilots in front. One is PIC the other is
helper, but safety from any quarter takes precedence and input from
either seat should be evaluated.

1. "Six good bars" (meaning that our JPI EDM-700 engine analyzer is
showing all six cylinders functioning properly)

Bars? Analyzer?

Engine is running!

2. "Manifold pressure good"

Runway lights are moving by.

3. "RPMs good"
Revolutions per minutes?

Engine got louder


4. "Airspeed's alive"

Runway lights are moving faster.


If any one of these four parameters aren't met to our satisfaction, we
will abort the takeoff. By doing it this way, the pilot can keep his
eyes on the runway, instead of down inside the plane.

Looking down on take off?

IRL I check MP, oil pressure, and RPM after applying full power.
I don't look back in except to check speed just before rotation which
should happen about 800 feet down the runway. If it don't I don't.
The next look at the gages is when I do the power reduction. All the
rest is by sound and feel.

It wouldn't matter if God were in the right seat, but if I hear "Dear,
I need to use the bathroom", or "I forgot to take the Dramamine" we're
landing" as long as there's at least a couple hundred feet of runway
left.


If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
out?

As a VFR pilot with IFR training (but no IR), my minimums are somewhat
lower than Mary's. (She has had no IFR training since her Private.)
Thus, occasionally she will express concern that the ceiling is coming
down, or visibility is getting lower than her comfort level.

We will have a brief discussion (if I'm flying), or we will land
immediately (if she's flying). There has only been one occasion (in 12
years) where I pressed on when she really wanted to land, and I have
regretted it ever since...if you know what I mean... ;-)

Does one or the other have overriding veto?

Nope. We both have an equal say in the cockpit -- but we also know
that the copilot NEVER takes control of the plane unless they feel

I once had a close encounter. Very close encounter on the VOR to MOP.
I was under the hood and of course the instructor was not. Instead of
grabbing the yoke, he hollered pull up and I instinctively shoved the
throttle in as I stood it on end or nearly so. He had not even
finished the "up" and we were pulling "Gs". We might have bent the 30
degrees in pitch rule more than a little. As the airspeed came down I
eased the nose down. We missed the other plane by inches according to
what I heard from others later. He'd never tell me how close it was.

With two people of the same capabilities flying the same plane it'd
be a different situation. OTOH I'd holler first and react only if the
pilot didn't.

One day we (instructor and I - not the same CFII as above) were out
doing some instrument work. He was checking the instruments out and
started to ask me a question just as ATC came on with some
instructions. I raised my hand to signal quite! Unfortunately I raised
it rather quickly and he was leaning forward. He commented later that
he would never, ever touch anything in the Deb without first saying he
was going to do so. I had hit him right in the snot box and it was not
a gentle tap. Fortunately he knew it was not on purpose and we still
fly together.

_Boy_an_I_glad_ that_wasn't_Joyce!

their lives are directly threatened. This has also only happened once
(when I saw a plane on a collision course coming in from our 8 o'clock
position, and pushed the yoke down without warning) in 12 years.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
She'll be giving
me directions helping me find someplace we are going then suddenly get
silent as I start into an intersection at cruise speed. She'll suddenly
scream, "Turn left, right here!!!"....

After only 18 years together, my wife has me trained even beyond that...
Several years ago while driving down a near empty interstate highway at,
let's just say well over the legal speed limit, we approach an off ramp.
Not an off ramp that we intend to use, just an off ramp. At the very last
second my wife screams THIS IS OUR EXIT!!! And I, like a well trained
husband, crank the wheel to the right and we're instantly heading up the off
ramp at over 80mph. As I stomp on the brakes trying to get us slowed down
before we sail through the stop sign at the top of the ramp, I start to look
around and see nothing.... absolutely nothing... so now I'm both wondering
what in the world she's doing and getting slightly irate because I don't
know what she's doing.... then I saw it... the only building within view...
sitting on the back side of a gravel parking lot... all alone... out in the
boondocks... painted.... pink. An adult book store.

And she starts to laugh.

So now every time we drive by an off ramp with an adult book store at the
end of it, we both look at each other and say "This is your exit".

Jim

"Jim Burns" wrote in message
...

After only 18 years together, my wife has me trained even beyond that...

Great story! Just imagine how well trained you'll be after 40 years!!!!!
:-))

Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote
snip Just imagine how well trained you'll be after 40 years!!!!!
Dudley Henriques

That's what SHE keeps telling me!! )

Jim

Montblack wrote:
("john smith" wrote)
(Taking this thread into a new direction)
Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
couples who use this forum that I am aware of.


J.O. and Stella Star


Montblack

That's right.

When we fly together:

.. The pilot not flying helps navigate.

.. The pilot not flying resists the urge to scream or grab the yoke.

.. The pilot not flying does not offer correction to the pilot flying
unless absolutely necessary, i.e., fear of death.


Our biggest problem is personal preference.

You like a Low Wing and I like a High Wing.
You say it's manly and call me a sissy.
Low Wing, High Wing, Manly, Sissy.
Let's call the whole flight off.

You like a Piper and I like a Cessna.
You like an Archer and I like a Skyhawk.
Piper, Cessna, Archer, Skyhawk.
Let's call the whole flight off.

My apologies to George and Ira Gershwin.

- John Ousterhout -

"Christopher Campbell" wrote in message
e.com...
On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:28:50 -0800, Jay Beckman wrote
(in article ):

"john smith" wrote in message
...
What I am trying to understand is, how a husband and wife, both pilots,
would not challenge their spouse's decision to press a situation which
might lead to an uncertain outcome?

(Taking this thread into a new direction)
Ron and Margie, Jay and Mary, and the Tcraft couple are the only married
couples who use this forum that I am aware of.
Maybe there is a new thread, do spouses that fly together use a
challenge
and response type of CRM when they fly together?
What type of resolution do they use?
If either one or the other expresses a concern, do they land and sort it
out?
Does one or the other have overriding veto?


Just some anecdotal info:

At the AOPA Expo, John and Martha King (arguably the best known
Husband/Wife
flying duo) mentioned that this was at one time a huge problem for them.
As
they tell it, after many arguments and disagreements (and you get the
sense
that some affected their flying) they came up with a pretty simple
solution:
The person in the right seat calls the person in the left seat "Captain"
which immediately difuses any question as to who is PIC.

Now, they go on to explain in their presentation that they have forged
CRM
meathods that work specifically for them. The biggest one is that they
have
learned to make their point(s) to each other by pointing out trends as
they
fly. Instead of the right seat saying something like, "Uh, aren't you
too
far right of the localizer?" they'd say "I show we're right of the
localizer...trend continuing...no change." Seems like taking a more
business-like approach with the right seat aknowledging the left seat as
PIC
but supporting the left seat with simple information has made a world of
difference for them.

They also have another rule that works very well for them: most chicken
pilot
wins. If one does not want to go, they don't go.

And the Higher altitude wins. I think we should be a 7000, she thinks
8000, 8 it is. On the localizer, she'll occaisionally say something like:
"Ah, Bracketing" as I start a my third turn toward the needle.

Al G

Um, that would be 7000 and 9000 (3000 AGL) wouldn't it?

Jim


And the Higher altitude wins. I think we should be a 7000, she thinks
8000, 8 it is. On the localizer, she'll occaisionally say something like:
"Ah, Bracketing" as I start a my third turn toward the needle.

Al G