AN ENGINE FOR HOMEBUILDERS

On May 21, 9:21*am, wrote:

One quick question, will a motorcycle chain system work for a prop?
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Dear Canuck (and the Group)

Do you mean like the one the Wright brothers used? :-)

The answer is a qualified yes. Experience with chain drives usually
causes people to seek some other method. The main problem is failures
due to lack of lubrication.

-R.S.Hoover

"Bob" wrote in message
...
On May 21, 9:21 am, wrote:

One quick question, will a motorcycle chain system work for a prop?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Canuck (and the Group)

Do you mean like the one the Wright brothers used? :-)

The answer is a qualified yes. Experience with chain drives usually
causes people to seek some other method. The main problem is failures
due to lack of lubrication.

-R.S.Hoover

There are some other problems with chain drive. Rotorway helicopters used a
triple row chain drive for their "150"hp engine for some years with an oil
bath. Chain life wasn't that long and oil leaks from the bath would get on
the belts below effectively disconnecting the engine.



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On Thu, 21 May 2009 10:53:40 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote:



I've got to go. Zometa. IV. About a quart. Takes a while (drip-
drip-drip...) Then I gotta look at a faucet that is doing the same
thing (drip-drip-drip...)

-Bob

and then there's the prostate (drip-drip-drip...)

.....sorry :-)

Stealth Pilot

On Thu, 21 May 2009 16:58:16 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:



I wish I had a shop full of TATA engines to play with. There may be a
combination of cam & rod-length that can give a reliable 40hp at an
rpm most suitable for a prop.

TATA?


Tata is a company in India probably every bit as big as General
Motors. primarily selling within India but we do see Tata trucks here
in australia on occasion.

Bob wrote:
On May 21, 9:21 am, wrote:

One quick question, will a motorcycle chain system work for a prop?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Canuck (and the Group)

Do you mean like the one the Wright brothers used? :-)

The answer is a qualified yes. Experience with chain drives usually
causes people to seek some other method. The main problem is failures
due to lack of lubrication.

-R.S.Hoover

The Wrights had more than one shaft break. The chain drive is relatively
stiff. This is an advantage of the belt drive. It can quench those
ringing vibrations that wring shafts to failure.

Brian W

On May 21, 10:21*am, wrote:

One quick question, will a motorcycle chain system work for a prop?

Hey Canuck,

Where-the-hell you been for the last 106 years? Take a look at a few
old photos and you'll see the answer to your question. Now before
everyone assumes that they know where I'm going with this response,
let me dispell a few myths:

1. it was NOT a bike chain. It was a #35 solid-link chain made by
Diamond. Two props means only 5.75hp per prop, so the #35 was the
correct size for our two brothers from Ohio (same size would work well
on a go-cart).

2. The two biker-brothers from OH were NOT the only ones to use a
chain PSRU successfully. Ben Epps did it in 1907. And some Italian did
it in the teens. Never did identify that plane, but it was a flying-
boat with a high-mounted chain-driven prop.

3 Tortional (sp??) vibration would be a serious issue if you don't
know about the working solution for it. That being a prop-shaft made
of spring-steel. Think tortion-bar suspension. Wil and Orv discovered
this the hard way by cracking two sets of tubular prop-shafts before
treking back home and making a suitable replacement. (Oh yea, don't
forget to squirt a little "Arnstein's tire cement" on the threads of
your shaft nuts or they'll come loose.)

Now would a modern motorcycle chain work? You bet. Would it be really
heavy? You bet. Could you find a suitable airframe that would handle
the weight, deal with the vibes, and last a reasonable amount of time?
Hmmmm. One thing is certain about chains though. They typically draw
1-3% of the engine's power. A belt is usually 5-15%. That's why you
don't see too many belt-driven bicycles out there.

If it were me, I'd be inclined to try two B&S Vanguards driving
outrigger-props via chains or serpentine belts on a test-bench just to
see what I could get. Probably a waste of time, but we are here to
experiment. Too bad all of the small I/C diesels are rediculiously
expensive and super-heavy.

Hey Euro-pilots, got any small diesels that might work with direct-
drive? No dice here in the States. Diesel here equals truck.

Harry

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Charlie" wrote

If 40 hp will do it, the new 'industrial' engines are looking really good
at this point. I follow an email list that focuses on small 4stroke
engines for a/c, & most of the discussion lately has been about these
engines. One guy is converting a vertical shaft lawn tractor motor (~32
hp).

These engines aren't at the 40 hp level yet, but it's easy to see bigger
ones coming out in the future. The nice thing about an industrial engine
is the output shaft & bearing is usually designed to take the horrendous
side loads of a reduction drive, so an a/c reduction or prop bending load
shouldn't be too much of a problem, and they are designed for continuous
output, not intermittent or varying load like most engines.

The biggest drawback these engines seem to have is weight. The current
offerings in a two cylinder and about 25 to 30 HP go about 100 pounds,
right?
--
Jim in NC

Or more, in the catalogs that I have seen. :-(

Peter

Dear Canuck,

Please accept my sincere apology for my unfair assumption (and for
Harry's too) that everyone in the whole wide world is balanced on the
razor's edge of Aviation History.

Harry has paid his dues, however. Perhaps he will point us toward
some pictures.

The Wright's 'Flyer' is surprisingly up to date for anyone interested
in low-cost flight. Not a very good example, however, but given the
era it's surprising how much we can learn from their efforts.

The lubrication problem is common to all chain drives: you need to
get the lubricant down around the bar which supports the roller,
rather than on the roller itself. At one time Chain Drive was
considered the cat's meow when it came to trucks, cars and other
vehicles. And still is! (Ever seen the equipment used in a modern
lumber mill? They've got a kind of straddle-lifter that will make a
believer out of you when it comes to chain-driven vehicles.

Modern chains impregnate the bar (which probably has a more
appropriate name) with 'solid lubricant,' which I take to mean
Tungsten Disulfide or similar. Also note the amount of work a chain
absorbs, as compared to a belt drive.

There is also rope drives (!!) which I suggest we reserve for
Emergencies Only.

Mention 'chain drive' and almost everyone knows what you're talking
about, even though real chain, such as used for pulling a truck out of
the mud, is also used, typically in chain hoists and the like. But
most folks accept 'chain drive' as meaning the roller-chain common to
bicycles, motor cycles, AIRPLANES and so forth.

Motor cycle engines AND their chain drive, was fitted to a number of
gliders and sailplanes in the 1930's. There's no reason to think
we've seen the last of such conversions in the Twenty-First Century,
although we'll probably see a v-twin industrial engine replacing the
motorcycle engine. Why? Because it's blower driven cooling system
allows it to be submerged within the fuselage. Someone has even
suggested a twin-engine version, one pushing the other pulling, which
is pretty smart thinking, in that with both engines on-line you would
have plenty of thrust for take-off. Shutting down one of the engines
-- and allowing the prop to self-feather -- would allow you to cruise
on the remaining engine. Indeed, such a system may offer a
significant advantage with regard to price when compared to a larger
engine and a PSRU.

-R.S.Hoover

"Stuart Fields" wrote

Yes both the Robinson, Scweitzer and Helicycle helos have a stack of belts
in their drive train.

Do you know how many belts and what HP they are transmitting?
--
Jim in NC

On May 22, 1:14*am, Stealth Pilot

and then there's the prostate (drip-drip-drip...)

....sorry :-)
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Dear Stealth,

Prior to its active ingredient being synthesized in the late 1960's
the only thing in the in the Pharmacopia specifically for 'urinary
tract health' was Serenoa repens, commonly known as Saw Palmetto.
Even more surprising is that the stuff actually works (!!)

It is available in the herbal section at most pharmacies and health
food stores.

If you have never taken it before, begin by taking two 450mg capsules
twice per day. That is, 1800mg total. If there is no evidence of
benefit, as might be the case with old herbal stock or with an over-
weight individual, you may increase the dosage up to 2700 mg per day
in 450 mg steps with at least five days at each new level.

When you have evidence the herb is working you should begin REDUCING
your dosage (It is available in dosages smaller than 450), seeking a
minimum level that provides the desired result.

As I said, the stuff actually works -- which is a surprise to many
physicians, who seem to think all drugs come from the pack of salesmen
who flood their offices with free lunches, free tickets to what-ever,
and ANYTHING ELSE that will cause the physician to prescribe their
product, a sad state of affairs that would be illegal were it not for
the POWERFUL drug company lobby that makes sure this form of bribery
remains legal.

But you want to make sure you are taking only the MINIMUM amount
required. So be warned.

-R.S.Hoover