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Nothing good about Ethanol



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 1st 06, 12:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol


"Denny" wrote:

The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn
wastes more energy than it makes according to experts.



Well, use some rational thinking... We grow corn to make alcohol...

What does the tractor that plowed and planted the field burn? diesel
mostly

What do the fertilizer and pesticides put on the field come from?
petroleum base

What does the combine that harvests the field burn? gas or diesel

What does the truck that takes the corn to the local elevator burn?
diesel or gas

What does the train that moves the corn to market burn? diesel

What does the electric motor(s) at the alcohol plant get the current
from - and ditto the lights, air conditioners, furnaces, etc? (natural
gas mostly)

What do the employees at the alcohol plant burn to get there for work
each day? gas mostly

Where does the heat to distill the mash come from? natural gas

What does the truck burn to take the alcohol to the gasoline terminal?
diesel


Those kinds of questions also apply to the exploration for and extraction of
oil, the transportation and refining of crude, and the transportaton of
gasoline. It takes energy to make energy; this is not news. Also, gasoline
has enormous hidden costs related to our (U. S.) international efforts,
military and otherwise, to maintain the security of imported oil sources.

The question is: what are the real figures on energy margin recovery for
ethanol? I can find a lot of hand-waving pro and con, but I'm having
trouble locating any scientific/economic study that seems objective and
trustworthy.

[snip]

Anyway, those of you who favor alcohol explain to me how burning
alcohol reduces oil imports...


Amen.

--
Dan

'Gut feeling'

Intestinologists concur that the human gut does not contain any rational
thoughts.

What the human gut *is* full of is moderately well known.


  #12  
Old June 1st 06, 01:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol


You pilots putting auto gas in your planes need to think again, carefully.


Not much thinking required, you *MUST* now test each and every load of fuel
for the presence of ethanol before you put it in your plane. Ethanol free
autogas is geting much harder to find. And it is certainly not labeled at
the pump anymore like it used to be.


  #13  
Old June 1st 06, 02:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol


Dan Luke wrote:
"180pilot" wrote:

The bottom line is that at the moment producing Ethanol from corn
wastes more energy than it makes according to experts.



I ain't got a dog in this fight, but any time I read a sentence like that,
my bs meter starts to twitch.

What experts? Employed by whom? What are their qualifications? What
peer-reviewed studies did they publish?


Coincidently, yesterday the latest Car and Driver arrived in my mailbox
with a long article summarizing the case against ethanol pretty
succinctly -- it quotes several studies including a meta study done by
the University of California. It might be worth picking one up at
the newsstand if this issue really interests you. I checked their
website, the article isn't up there yet.

One thing I learned is that one reason car makers love E85 is that it
gives them a bonus on the CAFE standards. Only the gasoline that is
burned counts, which means they get to multiply the gas mileage of an
E85 car by 7 (1/0.15)when computing its contribution to fleet average
MPG. This was estimated be with $200 million a year to GM alone.

Damn, everywhere you look with ethanol, there's a subsidy or preference
of some sort involved, isn't there?

  #14  
Old June 1st 06, 03:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol

B A R R Y wrote:
RST Engineering wrote:
The ethanol is blended with the gasoline right at the tanker truck.


I heard an interview on a financial show a few weeks back that had an
oil company executive telling a completely different story. He
explained that plants and storage facilities needed certain parts and
seals changed to switch from MTBE laced gas to a gas / alcohol blend.


Which explains why the blending is done at the truck instead of the
plant.

Could this be a regional thing?


You think it could take a while to shut down a plant and do the
conversions required?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
  #15  
Old June 1st 06, 03:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol

Dan Luke wrote:
What experts? Employed by whom? What are their qualifications? What
peer-reviewed studies did they publish?


Think about it logically. Besides, in order to be "energy independent"
with Ethanol alone, we would haqve to plant corn on every arcre of
farmland in this country.... forget growing any actual food.

Ethanol is a pipe dream, and except as an additive to boost octane
it is not cost efective.


  #16  
Old June 1st 06, 03:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol

Exactly. But it makes dumb people *feel* good so lets do it.
  #17  
Old June 1st 06, 05:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol

("xyzzy" wrote)
One thing I learned is that one reason car makers love E85 is that it
gives them a bonus on the CAFE standards. Only the gasoline that is
burned counts, which means they get to multiply the gas mileage of an E85
car by 7 (1/0.15)when computing its contribution to fleet average MPG.
This was estimated be with $200 million a year to GM alone.



Simple enough to correct - call it Fuel Mileage.


Montblack

  #18  
Old June 1st 06, 06:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol

ktbr wrote:
Exactly. But it makes dumb people *feel* good so lets do it.



Right up there with the "safety" aspects of vehicles with tendencies to
roll over and terrible panic maneuver habits?

Let the marketeers roll... G
  #20  
Old June 1st 06, 07:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning
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Default Nothing good about Ethanol



ktbr wrote:



Think about it logically. Besides, in order to be "energy independent"
with Ethanol alone, we would haqve to plant corn on every arcre of
farmland in this country.... forget growing any actual food.


Bah, we've got millions of acres here in Montana, any wheat producing
state will, that are not farmed right now because it won't support sweet
corn. But it will grow the field corn that you use to produce ethanol
quite nicely.

 




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